E15 - The Kennedy Assassination

[00:00:00] Jeff: This week, conspiracies everywhere. Did Oswald act alone? Was there a second shooter? And what are our connections to the Kennedy assassination? Welcome to Subpar Talks.

Hey everybody. Welcome to Subpar Talks, where we have conversations about everything. I'm Jeff. 

[00:00:34] Chris: And I'm Chris. 

[00:00:36] Jeff: Thank you so much for joining us yet again for another episode here. And yes, as always, before we get rolling, we do have our standard disclaimer, listener discretion advised. There will be profanity, perhaps a lot of it from episode to episode. And in this podcast we will, from time to time, touch on some hot button issues, touchy subjects. But the thing is, we inject our humor into all of this stuff. And if that doesn't sit well with you, that's OK. Maybe we are not your cup of tea. But for everybody else, sit back, grab your favorite beverage, because here we go with this week's topic.

This is November the 22nd, which holds a significant day in American history, and that is the date on which John F. Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas. Are you good at knowing when presidents were killed? Because I think Kennedy is the only one, like for sure, I, that's the only date I know. 

[00:01:47] Chris: I know Lincoln. He was April 14th. 

[00:01:52] Jeff: Fourteenth, OK. I couldn't remember 12 or 14. 

[00:01:54] Chris: 1865. 

[00:01:55] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:01:55] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:01:56] Jeff: Do you know Garfield? 

[00:01:59] Chris: No. I don't know Garfield. I know McKinley was in 1900. 

[00:02:05] Jeff: Yeah, I think, 

[00:02:05] Chris: I think, but I couldn't tell you the date. Now, one of the things, so this is something that I just pieced together one time, Lincoln was shot on April 14th. The Titanic hit the iceberg on April 14th also. 

[00:02:21] Jeff: So I, I get that, yeah, I get the Titanic, and Lincoln's assassination, and also the end of the Civil War, those are all the, I mean, obviously different years for the Titanic and, and Lincoln and the Civil War, but I get those dates mixed up. 

[00:02:38] Chris: So I think the Civil War ended on April 12th. I think it was like two days before he was assassinated. And April 12th was also, so here you can just put it all together. April 12th was also the day that the Titanic left England. 

[00:02:56] Jeff: Oh, OK. 

[00:02:57] Chris: So it hit the iceberg two days later. And I'm pretty sure that it was Lincoln getting assassinated two days later. But then the Titanic sank on, actually sank on April 15th. So that's just tax day. That's an easy day to remember. 

[00:03:14] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:03:15] Chris: They got screwed. And we do too.

[00:03:17] Jeff: All right, so we are talking about the JFK assassination, and there's a lot to unpack here. And Chris and I grew up in Dallas, and so we have at least that connection right there that some people aren't gonna have. And, we can get more into that and just the, the reaction to the city of Dallas and all that. And, we will talk about some conspiracy theories because I really don't think you can talk about the Kennedy assassination without bringing those up. How much merit those have, well, we'll get into, to that a little bit later. But I thought it was, the best way to start is to explain exactly what happened, like what we actually know happened as far as the assassination goes, and, uh, and then we can spring off into the other stuff. Does that sound reasonable? 

[00:04:13] Chris: That's good.

[00:04:15] Jeff: OK, so this is November 22nd, 1963. Kennedy had been visiting Texas because he was trying to smooth out differences between factions in the Democratic Party. So this is a time when the Democratic party is really starting to, to fracture in a lot of ways. Loosely based, uh, between liberals and conservatives. So you had liberals of which Kennedy was one, LBJ was one. They were pro civil rights, uh, wanted more federal government involvement generally in stuff. And then you still had your conservative Democrats, largely in the south. And so Kennedy was coming to smooth out that stuff in Texas because he's gearing up for the 1964 presidential election and he really needs Texas to get on board. Texas has a lot of electoral votes, and so that was why he was down here. I always found it strange, and I think you do too, that he was in Fort Worth and then flew to Lovefield Airport in Dallas. 

[00:05:21] Chris: I never could understand that. So I saw this, it was a 13 minute flight. 

[00:05:28] Jeff: It's ridiculous. And for those of you who don't know, Dallas and Fort Worth are literally like, I don't know what the actual mileage is, like maybe 30 miles if that. I, yeah. 

[00:05:38] Chris: Like downtown to downtown, I think that's about right. 

[00:05:41] Jeff: Yeah, it's um, it's not very far at all. I can understand though, as a president, you wanna make a grand entrance, I guess. And so that's why they had, you know, Air Force One fly into Love Field. So Kennedy is in the, uh, motorcade. He's the second car in the motorcade. They're driving through downtown Dallas. He is with his wife Jackie Kennedy. And in that same car is John Connally, the Texas governor, with his wife. I don't remember her name. They were headed to the Trade Mart, which is on the west, northwest side of the city. That's where they were going for a luncheon. As the motorcade turns on Elm Street in downtown Dallas, they passed in front of the Texas School Book Depository and three shots were fired. The first one hit Kennedy in the back and exited his neck. And this is the same bullet that hit John Connally and wounded him. Uh, it hit Connally in the back, exited his chest, and shattered his right wrist. And it ended up being lodged in his left thigh. And every time I'm thinking about this, I think about Jerry with the Magic Loogie and theory, and it lands on Newman's left thigh. That's where it ended up. So I guess Newman was the John Connally in that episode.

[00:07:00] Chris: So just to throw this in here, one of the funny things about that, and I didn't know this at the time, you know there was the JFK movie. 

[00:07:09] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:07:09] Chris: Well, Wayne Knight, the actor playing Newman, was in that movie. He was in the trial, in the movie with Kevin Costner, and he was in the same position in that trial as he was with Jerry. So he was in Connally's position when they were talking about the magic bullet theory. 

[00:07:33] Jeff: I had no idea. Also... 

[00:07:36] Chris: That's crazy. 

[00:07:36] Jeff: Later on in that episode, well that episode's a two-parter with Keith Hernandez, but they're talking about if they wanna do anything, and Keith Hernandez says, have you seen JFK? And Jerry says, no, I haven't seen it. 

[00:07:50] Chris: Yes. 

[00:07:51] Jeff: OK. So the second bullet, uh, missed everybody. Well, kind of. It hit the curb on the far side of the street, ricocheted, and hit a spectator in the face. It wasn't a major thing, but that's all that happened with that. And then the third bullet is the one that hits Kennedy and kills him. It hit him in the back right of his head. And this is taken from the Warren Commission Report, and I got this from Wikipedia, but this is taken straight from the Warren Commission Report. His blood and fragments of his scalp, brain, and skull landed on the interior of the car, the inner and outer surfaces of the front glass windshield, the sun visors, the front engine hood, and the rear trunk lid. His blood and fragments also landed on the Secret Service follow-up car and its driver's left arm, as well as on the motorcycle officers who were riding on both sides of Kennedy just behind his vehicle. This is a, I read what type of rifle that Oswald used, but this is a high powered rifle and I mean, it's doing tons of damage. 

[00:08:58] Chris: Clearly.

[00:08:59] Jeff: You know, Jackie Kennedy, she, uh, she said later on she didn't recall doing this, but climbing onto the trunk after it happened. And it was like an instinctive reaction. I mean, basically half his head is ending up on the trunk and it was like her natural reaction to, to get it. 

[00:09:18] Chris: Reach out and grab at it, yeah. 

[00:09:20] Jeff: Yeah. Uh, so Kennedy was rushed to Parkland Hospital, which is, is nearby where he was later pronounced dead, of course. So the police began searching the entire area right after this happened because the motorcade speeds off. Um, the escort obviously goes with them, but there were cops around. So they start, uh, asking people, right, what did you see? All that kind of stuff. And they concentrated on the famed Grassy Knoll, right. That's where a lot of people were, were watching from, or at least a few, anyway. They went to the fence, and I know this is featured in the movie JFK. But the fence, and they searched and they didn't find anybody there. They interviewed a bunch of witnesses around. There was a guy named Howard Brennan, who was across the street from the Texas School Book Depository. He gave a description of a guy he saw in the sixth floor window, and he ended up giving the height and the build and, and dark hair and all that of Oswald. That's who it ended up being, of course. Uh, there was a Texas School Book Depository employee, Bonnie Ray Williams. Uh, evidently Bonnie is a guy. That's weird, but that's his name. He said he saw Lee Harvey Oswald twice on the sixth floor, um, that morning. Uh, Lee Harvey Oswald's boss reported him missing, and, uh, Lee Harvey Oswald had begun working at the School Book Depository about a month before this happened, about a month and a half I think. There's another witness, Buell Frazier. He was also an employee there. Uh, he's the one who drove Oswald to work that morning. And when he picked Oswald up, Oswald had a long brown paper bag, and of course, Frazier asks him what's he got in the bag? And Oswald said it had, it contained curtain rods. That was what he said, and that was that. Several employees were standing on the fifth floor, so right below where Oswald was. They heard three shots directly above them. They all said they heard the shell casings hitting the floor. So the Dallas police send out an APB with Oswald's description and a police officer, JD Tippit, was in Oak Cliff, which is a neighborhood just south of downtown. And about three miles from the assassination site, he sees somebody who resembles Oswald's description walking along the sidewalk. He calls Oswald over to the police car and, uh, they exchange words. Nobody knows exactly what they said, but Tippitt steps out and Oswald takes out his pistol, a revolver, and shoots Tippit and kills him. Oswald runs to the Texas Theater and walks in without paying. So that alerts the people there working at the Texas Theater. They call the cops and they come and arrest Oswald after he resisted. So if you look at film and pictures of Oswald, uh, he's got a black eye, right? So that obviously happened, uh, upon the arrest, Oswald was taken to a city jail and on that next Sunday, he was being transferred to the Dallas County Jail when Jack Ruby, who was a nightclub owner, walked up to Oswald and shot him in the chest on national TV. So, I think that kind of sums it up. 

[00:12:51] Chris: Pretty much sums it up. That's a lot of information right there. It's amazing how much happened in such a short period of time, both within that day and even just the next two to three days. Because then Kennedy's funeral was just on Monday, so that happened on Friday the 22nd, and Kennedy's funeral was Monday the 25th. So all of this stuff is going on, you know, with him being transferred to the jail, he gets shot just the day before the funeral. That was a ton of activity. And people were just glued to their TVs. 

[00:13:27] Jeff: Yeah. OK, so where should we start? It's hard to know where to start cuz there's so many things to talk about here, and not just the conspiracy theories, but there's so much to to talk about. 

[00:13:40] Chris: So I think one thing to bring up, and I can't remember, uh, when this came out, was the Zapruder film. 

[00:13:48] Jeff: So I think they knew pretty early on. When they were interviewing witnesses, he was, Abraham Zapruder was standing on a, like a concrete pedestal on the Grassy Knoll. And so I think the police discovered pretty soon after the assassination that he had filmed it. But I didn't know this. I mean, we always just grew up seeing the Zapruder film. I mean, it was just a thing. But the public didn't see the full thing until 1975. 

[00:14:22] Chris: Really? 

[00:14:22] Jeff: It was a show called Goodnight America. I don't know what that is, or was, but that was when it was first aired. Now, reporters had seen it and they had talked about it. Obviously the Warren Commission had access to it and all that. But people didn't see it in its entirety until, uh, 1975 and I, and I gotta, in preparing for the show, I watched it. I haven't seen it in a really long time, and it's rough.

[00:14:47] Chris: It is. 

[00:14:49] Jeff: That, that third shot. Yeah. 

[00:14:51] Chris: Yeah. It really is. Ultimately that helped a lot in terms of them trying to determine exactly what happened. Clearly it took a while to, even knowing it immediately, they had to get access to it, find it, locate people who are around, etc. But at least, you know, eventually it, it helped to piece some things together. But, it's, it's pretty amazing actually that at the time, I don't know how many moving cameras, video cameras were around, that he was able to capture it that way. The other thing I think worth saying too, that that created a lot of confusion is, that is a, I mean, while there is plenty of open area, it is bounded by buildings on the other sides.

[00:15:43] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:15:43] Chris: Which is all obviously gonna create this echo chamber. And that created all kinds of questions and doubt about were there other people? Were there other shooters? Where did it come from? Because you make any loud noise in an area like that, it can sound like it's coming from all around you. 

[00:16:02] Jeff: Yeah. So that was one thing the Warren Commission did. They, you know, they, they interviewed all these witnesses. And, and by the way, I mean, I, I'm touting what the Warren Commission found, but there were problems with the Warren Commission. We can get into that later. But they interviewed a, a bunch of witnesses, I mean everybody, uh, that they knew about. And 80% of people said that there were three shots. So that's a really high percentage, and that's what the evidence shows, three shots. But when they ask people where the shots came from, it was all over the place. Some people said, yeah, it came from high up. Some people were like, no, it came ahead. And you know, it's hard to tell when you have something like that. Think about a firecracker, just a little Black Cat firecracker. Like if it just goes off, you're not sure where it's coming from. 

[00:16:57] Chris: And, all of these people who are saying where it came from, they were in different places. Nevermind, like I said, it being an echo chamber, they weren't all even in the same place. Some were on this side of the street, some on that side of the street, some up the street, down the street, whatever. 

[00:17:15] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:17:15] Chris: I think, uh, I mean, you're talking about, you know, where do you start? Obviously, that's one thing was people just questioned, OK, did Oswald do it at all? Was there a second shooter, a third shooter, whatever. There were questions about, did you know, was he physically capable? Now he was in the Marines. I don't know if that was the kind of rifle that he used in the Marines, but...

[00:17:43] Jeff: Yeah, I don't know. 

[00:17:45] Chris: At least he was trained with weapons. 

[00:17:48] Jeff: He was classified as a sharp shooter, so he obtained sharp shooter status, whatever that entails in the Marines. He, he got it. Yeah. 

[00:17:57] Chris: Yeah. So there were some questions about could he have fired three rounds in that amount of time. I think that was pretty much proven that yes, he could, as an expert person, being trained in that way. There were a lot of questions surrounding the treatment at Parkland Hospital, because in Texas there would typically be an autopsy done in Texas. And basically that whole thing was overridden and said, well, we're taking Kennedy back to Washington now. 

[00:18:39] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:18:40] Chris: Which raised a lot of questions, so I'm just kind of throwing stuff out there. Like, these were things that came up and, right, wrong or indifferent, why are these things happening?

[00:18:51] Jeff: Yeah. I, I look back at it now and I say, you know, why didn't they do this differently? That differently? You could have erased a bunch of questions and, and Jack Ruby included, like Jesus Christ. If he had just not killed Oswald, then think, uh, we wouldn't be talking about this right now, maybe. Like, there would be so much that we would know that people now question. And yeah, like the Dallas DA and the police, they were like, yeah, we're charging him with, uh, with, you know, killing the president and killing the police officer. And the federal government said, you charge him with whatever you want, but it's a federal crime, so we're gonna handle everything from here on out. And, I mean, it's federal government versus a state in that regard, and so. 

[00:19:40] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:19:40] Jeff: And a president just killed, like federal government said, yeah, we're gonna do it and there's nothing you can do about it. 

[00:19:46] Chris: Right. Which was the same way they were treating the autopsy thing. They didn't want that to happen here at all. So they got a casket very quickly, said we're taking him, loaded that casket on Air Force One, swore in Johnson, and they were out. 

[00:20:06] Jeff: Got the fuck out. 

[00:20:07] Chris: Yeah, like they were gone. And I think Johnson was sworn in like an hour and 40 minutes or something after he had been pronounced dead. 

[00:20:17] Jeff: Yep. 

[00:20:18] Chris: They immediately took off. 

[00:20:19] Jeff: What do you think about Jack Ruby? 

[00:20:21] Chris: You know, I don't know a lot of details about him. I've just heard the, the bits and pieces that, it just calls a lot of things into question. Something's, something's not right. . Like if, if a president were killed in my lifetime, why am I going to go down to the jail and kill the assassin?

[00:20:44] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:20:45] Chris: You know, like, I've got no business with that. I can say, I can 100% believe that they were the assassin and yeah, they should be tried, convicted, life in prison, death penalty, whatever you think. But, basically let it play out. So what, what was his business of getting involved? I don't know. And that's where a lot of the conspiracy came from too, I think. 

[00:21:15] Jeff: Yeah, it does. I think so too. I don't think, I don't think there would be, well I said it a while ago, but if, if he had not done what he did, like we wouldn't have near these conspiracy theories that we have now. It's just, there's so many unanswered questions. So I did look up, I didn't know a lot about Jack Ruby. I did look up some, because I knew we were gonna be talking about this. He moved, um, from Chicago to Dallas in 1947. And we do know that he had been, well allegedly, an associate of some, I don't wanna say Mafia, but Mafia-type figures, like people who were into crime, just various crimes, whatever. Not necessarily a member of a, a crime family, but he had associates. And so he moved to Dallas in 1947. He owned some nightclubs and some strip clubs. He was known as the person who could get you girls. Like when they came to town, like he had some seedy, underground connections and he could hook you up with a girl for the night or whatever. That was the guy. And, and so he's a night club owner, strip club owner. He was gay. Did you know that? 

[00:22:28] Chris: I didn't know that, no. 

[00:22:31] Jeff: I didn't either. And witnesses say, now this is from a book, uh, by Gerald Posner. The title of that book is Case Closed: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK. Several people interviewed for that book said Jack Ruby was known for his volatile temper. He would just fly off the handle at the drop of a hat. People say he was a, "a kook, totally unpredictable". Some people called him a psycho. Other people said he was suffering from some sort of disturbance. So, definitely volatile and maybe there's something going on there. But after the assassination um, his sister, uh, she testified for the Warren Commission and she said that Ruby told her that he believed the assassination was a right wing plot. Which at the time, like, when before people really knew anything about Oswald, that was a reasonable assumption. Because, I've read this before, but when somebody first suggested to JFK that we need to go to, to Texas, uh, and we need to hit Dallas as well, he said, "Dallas, that's nut country". That's what Kennedy said. In other words, they're a bunch of right wing nuts. They don't like me down there. The John Birch Society, which was a bunch of kooks, uh, you know, ardently anti-communist and, and whatever else, um, they put out an ad in the Dallas newspapers, uh, a couple of days before Kennedy got to Dallas, and you can look this up, but it said, "Wanted For Treason" and it's got Kennedy's picture there. And they would put up "Impeach Earl Warren" billboards all around town. Uh, Earl Warren was the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court. So, it was reasonable to assume, and I'm sure Ruby's not the only one, that this was some kind of right wing plot, you know, some nut that killed Kennedy. But anyway, supposedly that's what Ruby told his sister. 

[00:24:36] Chris: So hearing that, knowing that, that just makes me wonder that much more why he was OK riding in an open convertible.

[00:24:46] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:24:47] Chris: You know, it was, it, it had been suggested that there was a, a bulletproof bubble that could have been put on that. And I, I read at one point, like, it had been raining that morning, but then it wasn't, so they didn't need it to protect from the rain. But he had said something about wanting to be and appear closer to the people.

[00:25:10] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:25:10] Chris: And not to be secluded in that way, like, I'm just gonna ride out in the open, like I'm part of the people. But that's more baffling, I guess, if you believe you're going to a place that you're not even liked. 

[00:25:27] Jeff: I know. And it's amazing. So that's one thing, the open car, uh, the convertible. The other thing is how freely people were allowed to just move in and out of buildings and around that whole area. Like there's no way it would be that today. And I guess it's one of those things you live and learn. But there were people walking all around the Texas School Book Depository. I mean, now if the president was doing that, they would have that whole area, like they wouldn't let anybody in those buildings, nothing like that. 

[00:26:02] Chris: No. 

[00:26:03] Jeff: So the night of the assassination, um, I always found this weird, but Oswald makes an appearance. Like the cops are taking him from one room to another, whatever, and the media's just allowed to be there. And so Oswald comes out and they start asking him questions. It's kind of like a press conference. And Jack Ruby was there. He impersonated a newspaper reporter. Yeah. So maybe this gives us some insight into what kind of person he was. He wanted to be close to the action. He impersonated a newspaper reporter, and after he was arrested, he told the FBI about this and said that he had his gun on him during that press conference.

[00:26:53] Chris: Really? 

[00:26:54] Jeff: So yeah, maybe he was thinking about doing what he ultimately did, maybe he was thinking about doing that on Friday night as opposed to Sunday morning. 

[00:27:04] Chris: Maybe so. 

[00:27:06] Jeff: And I'll say this last thing about Jack Ruby, unless you wanna, and you can add to it if you want. But an unnamed associated press source, so somebody with the AP, didn't want to give their name for whatever reason, but according to this person, Ruby made a final statement from his hospital bed December of 1966, that he alone had been responsible for the murder of Oswald. He said, "There's nothing to hide. There was no one else." That's according to that unnamed AP source. Take that for what it's worth. The person didn't disclose who they were. 

[00:27:44] Chris: Yeah, that's interesting. You know, going to the whole idea of some of these conspiracy theories, Oswald had been in the Marines. He had had trouble in the Marines, said he was court martialed twice, but was honorably discharged. So apparently, whatever those issues were had been decently worked out. But then he defected to Russia, actually married, uh, his wife was Russian, married someone there, but came back to the US I think it was, uh, was it like a year, I think about a year before the assassination. But the very idea, I mean, obviously these were turbulent times with Cuba, with Russia, so that's where a fair amount of these conspiracy theories came from anyway, was just all of the, the conflict that there was. And, oh, well, Cuba wanted him taken out. Russia wanted him taken out. Well, Oswald had these Russian ties, so there were all kinds of reasons to tie him into that. And then, we talked about this on a prior episode, was Jack Ruby having associations with Campisi, here in Dallas, who had Mafia ties. 

[00:29:06] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:29:07] Chris: And so then it's like, oh, well this is, that's where all these conspiracy theories can come from, is the people who were actually involved in all of this had questionable affiliations. 

[00:29:22] Jeff: So Oswald, he was a communist sympathizer, right? Or at least that's what we know about him. Like he had, you know, he wanted to go to Russia, wanted to live in Russia, He had, uh, left wing beliefs and, and whatever else. And so I think he thought that he might have been on the FBI's radar because somebody who goes to Russia from America, like back then, height of the Cold War, like they're gonna know and they're gonna watch you and they're gonna pay attention to what you're doing. So when he came back, he ordered that rifle, back when you could just order rifles through the mail. He used an alias, and I think he did that because he thought, my goodness, if I disclosed that it's really me, they're gonna come knocking on my door and whatever else. But I don't know. I'm like you, like, Jack Ruby? Like, he was this seedy character who apparently wanted to just be in the, the thick of it all and somebody who wanted to be a bigger player than he actually was. That's just the impression that I get from it. 

[00:30:32] Chris: Right. I think one other thing that a lot of people would latch onto, and admittedly it's gotten my attention. It just makes you curious about a lot of things that we will never know. Uh, I say that as in not so much was it a conspiracy, but, why did this happen? OK, assuming it is all as straightforward as we might believe it to be, such and such may just be coincidental, whatever. And one of those things was, and I think it was that Friday night when Oswald said, that was captured on the camera, when he said he was just a patsy. 

[00:31:14] Jeff: Right. Yeah. 

[00:31:15] Chris: And that brought up all kinds of questions like, OK, then he's not the he, even if he is the only person who did it, he was just put out there like he was the puppet. You know? 

[00:31:31] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:31:31] Chris: There's other, all these other people somewhere that are pulling the strings. Who are these people? 

[00:31:38] Jeff: What I don't get about that, and I don't know what he meant by that, but what I don't get is if he was saying, well, I'm just taking the fall for this, I'm not, whatever. He denied knowing anything. He denied shooting the president. Like he was denying it from the get go. He said, nobody's charging me with that, or whatever. So why would he say he's a patsy if he's claiming that he had nothing to do with it at all? It just seems weird to me that he would say that. But... 

[00:32:10] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:32:11] Jeff: I, I don't know. I, who knows what he meant by that. I've seen speculation on that, exactly what he meant, uh, different theories. I, one that, to me that seems the most plausible is, so again, he was a communist, a self-avowed communist, and I think he saw himself as a player. Not as big as he thought he was, but a player in the whole struggle between communism and capitalism. And just, I, I think that's what he meant by that. But again, like you said, I mean, we'll never know. It's just gonna be speculation from here on out. 

[00:32:53] Chris: Which is extremely frustrating. 

[00:32:56] Jeff: It is, isn't it? Yeah. But it's given us something to talk about. You know, uh, speaking of Kennedy calling Dallas nut country, um, I had never learned this before I started looking into this in preparation for this episode. But as they were on Elm Street, uh, John Connally's wife, she turned back and said, "You can't say that Dallas doesn't love you now, Mr. President." And he said, "No, you certainly can't." And those were his last words. 

[00:33:27] Chris: I have heard that. That's crazy.

[00:33:30] Jeff: Yeah. Which, yeah, that gives me chills just thinking about that. 

[00:33:33] Chris: Yeah, no kidding. 

[00:33:34] Jeff: And I hate, on the Zapruder film, every time I see it, so the first shot, uh, exited his neck, right, hit his back, exit his neck, and he reaches up and he's kind of hunched over and he's holding his neck. And Jackie Kennedy kind of leans down and you know, is like, what in the world's wrong? I have read before that, you know, Kennedy had major back problems, right. And he had a back brace on, and his back brace did not allow him to bend over very far. And I just remember when I heard that, I was like, man, if he just had not had that on, could he have bent down far enough. 

[00:34:14] Chris: Oh he could have ducked down. 

[00:34:15] Jeff: To where, yeah, the, the third bullet would not have hit him. But it's another, another one of those what ifs. 

[00:34:22] Chris: That, yeah, and that's, that's hard to know anyway, because it was so fast. I think they said like between two and three seconds from the first shot to the third shot. So, and again, clearly you're not expecting it, you're in this echo chamber. It could be more of a, what was that? Not even, oh, I'm being shot at. Uh, I don't know. That, that would, that's tough to know. 

[00:34:51] Jeff: So what do you know about the Warren Commission? Do you know a lot about it? A little? Nothing at all? 

[00:34:59] Chris: I really don't know a lot of details about it, no.

[00:35:03] Jeff: I don't either. I know just basically, I know the reason for its formation and then their essential conclusions. That's really all I know. But I know LBJ was quoted as saying, "We've gotta deal with this fast, otherwise people are gonna start blaming it on the Soviets." And he was worried about nuclear war and he said, if people get the wrong idea here, then that's gonna, uh, you know, ruffle the Soviet's feathers, and we're gonna have a war. So we've gotta get this thing done. And so he appointed the commission. Earl Warren ended up being the, the head of that commission, hence the name Warren Commission. And their ultimate findings were that Oswald acted alone, Ruby acted alone, three bullets, and that was it. The problem I have with the Warren Commission is it was formed so quickly and they had all their findings wrapped up, like really fast. Like it wasn't, I don't know how long it was, but it was a period of months. I don't even think it had convened for more than a year, and they already had their findings. But all they did was, I mean, all they did, there was a lot there, but they relied on what the FBI and the CIA provided to them. The Warren Commission had no independent investigators at all to investigate anything. They just relied on what the FBI and the CIA provided to them. So it's kind of like, like what purpose are you serving? 

[00:36:35] Chris: Right. 

[00:36:35] Jeff: Like we could have had somebody else come to those conclusions if they're just gonna read what the FBI and the CIA said, or interview witnesses. I don't know. 

[00:36:44] Chris: Well, and from a conspiracy standpoint, there were so many questions too. Not only about was this an outside thing, as in Russian, Cuban, anyone else. But there were questions about it being an inside job. You know? Was it the CIA? Was it the FBI? Was it Johnson?

[00:37:02] Jeff: LBJ. Yeah. 

[00:37:04] Chris: Right. And, and if clearly, if any of that were true, they're the last people you wanna be getting the information from.

[00:37:13] Jeff: Right. Here's what I, and we can get into specific conspiracy theories. But here's the problem I have with so many of these, is so many of these conspiracy theories are built on what somebody supposedly heard somebody say. Like the whole thing with, so I remember this was in, in the movie JFK. And one of the theories presented in that movie was the whole military industrial complex. That Kennedy was gonna get out of Vietnam and the people profiting off of us being in Vietnam and possibly escalating that whole situation in Vietnam, so all the military contractors, right, and the military itself, they had an incentive to not let that happen. And they figured LBJ was more of a war hawk than Kennedy was, so he'll keep the Vietnam war going. So we gotta take Kennedy out. But there's zero evidence that Kennedy was gonna pull out of Vietnam, that he was gonna try to deescalate the Cold War, any of, like, there's no evidence whatsoever. It's just that people pull some of this stuff out of their ass and then they just run with it. 

[00:38:31] Chris: Right. 

[00:38:32] Jeff: So, I don't know. That's, that's one theory there, but, uh, there are so many holes in some other ones too. 

[00:38:39] Chris: Yeah, I had, I had forgotten about that, but I had heard that also.

[00:38:43] Jeff: So, I remember, I've seen JFK once. 

[00:38:48] Chris: That's all I've seen it. It's a long one. 

[00:38:50] Jeff: Um, that's what she said. But that was before I knew that Oliver Stone was an absolute nut job. Like he's crazy conspiratorial, whatever. That was before I knew that. If I knew, if I had known about that regarding him at the time, I don't think I would've watched JFK the same way. But, I didn't know anything back then, so I just, you know, it was about the Kennedy assassination and we're in Dallas, so, OK, let's watch it, you know. And I remember being entertained by it. 

[00:39:25] Chris: Yeah, it was a good movie. Was he a nut job then, or did he become one? 

[00:39:30] Jeff: I don't know. I don't know. Maybe making that movie. Well, OK. I, he based that movie off of a book that Jim Garrison, the DA in New Orleans, wrote back in the late eighties. And Jim Garrison's the one, that's Kevin Costner in JFK, and he's the one that put that guy on trial for conspiring to kill Kennedy. And the jury returned a not guilty verdict in like 30 minutes or whatever. Like it was not even close.

[00:40:02] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:40:03] Jeff: But I don't know, maybe Oliver Stone read that book and, and that's what started his whole route to conspiratorial whatever. 

[00:40:12] Chris: I think something we're talking about here since we grew up in Dallas is our parents and grandparents experienced this firsthand. I think my earliest memory was the 20th anniversary, so 1983. And I remember seeing headlines in the, the Dallas papers talking about, hey, it's been 20 years. Well, as a kid, that seems like an eternity, 20 years ago. Well, we just passed 21 years of 9/11, and granted, 21 years is 21 years, yeah. Some time has passed. But man, you see some of that, see the footage, hear the stories, things like that, it does not really seem like 21 years ago. So the point being, even as a kid and you've got, you know, 20 years having passed, this was still very fresh in the minds of all of these people who lived it. And hearing the stories about it and, and the, the attitudes in particular, I, I can't say that I experienced this so much, but I certainly heard about it, is the negative association with Dallas. 

[00:41:33] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:41:33] Chris: Like saying, Dallas was responsible for killing the president. And that was a huge overarching feeling that, that lasted for a while. I think that's kind of worn off just with the, the time. And, but that, that was a big thing when I, when we were kids I know, is hearing things like that. 

[00:41:56] Jeff: Yeah. So that happened on a Friday. The Dallas Cowboys had a game in Cleveland on that Sunday. And I do know there was talk of canceling NFL games, uh, but they ultimately decided not to. And when the Cowboys took the field, and throughout the entire game, people were booing them. 

[00:42:16] Chris: Really? 

[00:42:16] Jeff: And throwing stuff at 'em, like yeah, the entire game just because they were from Dallas. And so this would've been in, um, speaking of hatred of Dallas and all that, this would've been 1964 or five. My dad, who was, so he would've been a senior in high school, they were on a, some kind of field trip, I don't know what, and they went to Baton Rouge, the capital building in Louisiana. And they were taking a tour and Huey Long, who had been Governor of Louisiana, and he was a senator, uh, from Louisiana, he was assassinated in the capital building in Baton Rouge. And there's a column there where you can see where, where one of the bullets hit. And my dad just remarked that, wow, they shot him right here in the capital building. And the guy turned to him and said, well, y'all killed Kennedy. Like, this is a kid in high school. It was like he had anything to do with, it was like, y'all killed Kennedy. So yeah, that's how people felt about the city and I think it took a long time for them to overcome that reputation. 

[00:43:33] Chris: I'm not sure we've evolved a whole lot either. I think people would probably feel the same way if something like that happened now. 

[00:43:39] Jeff: I think so. Yeah, you're probably right. 

[00:43:41] Chris: You know, it's like you're the ones who let that happen, kind of thing. It doesn't matter who actually did it. It's, that's where it happened. 

[00:43:48] Jeff: Yeah. So this was, uh, a story or stories that I grew up hearing my entire life. And Chris, you're gonna know these too. But I think it's interesting, um, just growing up in Dallas and that's really not the only connection that my dad has to the whole assassination. So my dad was a sophomore in high school in November of 1963 and the president's coming, so they let out school. And so, you know, you can go downtown or wherever to see the president. So, uh, my dad, his mom, little sister, and aunt, were all going to Love Field. They wanted to see the Kennedy's there. So everybody's probably seen it, but when Kennedy's landing at Love Field and you see Jackie Kennedy in the pink dress and they hand her the flowers and all that, well, my dad was there and, and um, you know, they got to see the president. They tried to get close to the president, like to shake his hand or whatever, but it was so incredibly crowded. So then they decided that they were going to, um, just go on home and that was their, you know, they, they kind of missed their chance to shake the president's hand or whatever, but they at least got to see him. And so they're on their way driving out of Love Field, and my dad's driving the car and they hear a bunch of sirens behind them. So my dad pulls off onto a patch of grass and they see the entire motorcade go by. And the police motorcycles and all that. And of course they had no idea what it was. My dad always said he figured there was an emergency in Washington, DC so the president's gotta get back to tend to that. And of course they turn on the radio and then they hear about shots fired and all of that. And so my dad drives them to Parkland Hospital. They, they wanted to go see what was going on and see if they could get more information or whatever. And they got close enough to where a cop told 'em you can't come any farther, you gotta turn around and, and leave. And um, so then they're on their way back home and obviously still listening to the radio and then they find out that, you know, the president's, uh, has actually died. And like everybody else in the country, they were just absolutely floored, couldn't believe it happened. But, that's a story that was always kind of cool to tell that, you know, my dad had a close connection to that. And that's not the only connection.

[00:46:32] Chris: Well, you could also see there was a, a picture on, in the paper where you could pick him out, pick out your dad. 

[00:46:40] Jeff: There was, uh, was that the Morning News or was it the Times Herald? 

[00:46:43] Chris: I think it was the Times Herald, Dallas Times Herald. 

[00:46:47] Jeff: Yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah. Right there on the front page. 

[00:46:49] Chris: Pick him out in the crowd. Yeah. 

[00:46:51] Jeff: Yeah. So JD Tippitt was the police officer who Oswald killed. When my dad was teaching junior high, he had JD Tippitt's kid in his seventh grade class. 

[00:47:06] Chris: Wow. Really? 

[00:47:07] Jeff: Yep. 

[00:47:08] Chris: I don't remember hearing that. 

[00:47:10] Jeff: Yeah. Said he was a really nice kid. I think he had talked to his mom as well and they seemed, you know, really nice. Can't imagine what that kid dealt with, uh, with all of that, and his wife. And then it doesn't end there. So when my dad was teaching classes at Richland College in Dallas, uh, for just a couple of class periods, he had Oswald's daughter in class. 

[00:47:39] Chris: Whoa. 

[00:47:40] Jeff: Yeah. But she dropped the class and then that was that. But anyway, that's wild, right? 

[00:47:48] Chris: Can you imagine living with that last name? 

[00:47:52] Jeff: No. 

[00:47:53] Chris: I mean, and in Dallas of all places. 

[00:47:56] Jeff: I know it. 

[00:47:57] Chris: But you could not go anywhere and say your name, without people knowing. 

[00:48:03] Jeff: So, his, uh, Oswald's wife, widow, uh, I read about her. She was Russian, right. But she became an American citizen later on and she, uh, I don't know if she's still alive. She might be. Um, she lives in Dallas, Fort Worth, somewhere in that whole metroplex. She's still kicking, I think. I don't know if she goes by the last name Oswald. Why would you? Like I can't imagine that at all. 

[00:48:36] Chris: I wouldn't. 

[00:48:38] Jeff: No. No, I wouldn't either. But anyway, yeah. That's the connection. Pretty cool. 

[00:48:44] Chris: That is very cool. So I have a couple of, uh, not nearly that close, I wouldn't say, couple of interesting connections. I did know a guy who was a Dallas police officer at the time and was on the route that they came down, but I can't remember which street, it was before they made their, they made a couple of turns prior to coming down, what, Elm? Is that Elm that... 

[00:49:14] Jeff: Yeah, where he got shot. 

[00:49:15] Chris: A couple of turns. He was back prior to that, but he was on the route of security that day. So he saw them go by, like literally a minute, probably before that. Um, the other thing was the judge who swore in Johnson right after the assassination. 

[00:49:39] Jeff: Sarah Hughes. 

[00:49:40] Chris: Yes. So my mom got remarried in 1980 and at their reception, there was another party going on in another room at the place. Um, some people came in asking for help. My step, my then now new stepdad's best man was a psychiatrist, so a trained medical person. But they both went in to see what was going on. This lady had fainted and, and or had a stroke, a heart problem. I don't remember what the issue was, had to give her CPR and that's who it was.

[00:50:26] Jeff: Oh, wow. 

[00:50:27] Chris: It was Sarah Hughes. Yeah. 

[00:50:28] Jeff: Yeah. OK. Huh. 

[00:50:31] Chris: So that was kind of crazy. I remember hearing that after the fact, like, are you serious? That's really who that was? 

[00:50:39] Jeff: Wow. That's cool. I mean, not cool that she had a medical problem. 

[00:50:42] Chris: Yeah. Well, well she lived so. Yeah. Good. She also got up and slapped somebody. Like she...

[00:50:48] Jeff: Did she really? 

[00:50:49] Chris: She, yeah. She wasn't happy about whatever had happened that...

[00:50:52] Jeff: I'm a federal judge. Goddammit. 

[00:50:54] Chris: I know. 

[00:50:57] Jeff: Don't touch me. 

[00:50:58] Chris: Right. 

[00:50:59] Jeff: So, um, have you been to the Sixth Floor Museum? 

[00:51:04] Chris: I have not. And I can't believe that. I'm really upset by it because I've wanted to go so many times. Couple of times thought I was, didn't work out, but I, I would still love to go.

[00:51:16] Jeff: I remember I went to it a long time ago. Um, I mean, I've been back since, but that was for another event. But to tour the museum, I did that a long time ago. I can't remember a whole lot about it. I do remember liking it, uh, finding it interesting. And I think it has really good reviews, so you should take that in.

[00:51:39] Chris: I've heard it's, it's a, a good museum. Yeah. I mean, not only with the information presented and pictures and all of that, but even the actual place where Oswald was. I mean, they had pictures of it, in doing their investigation. Like they literally recreated what it looked like at the time. 

[00:52:00] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:52:00] Chris: Cause there were like boxes and things stacked up in there that he was hiding behind or whatever.

[00:52:06] Jeff: Yeah. For those of you who have not been to Dallas, are not from there, you can go down to that whole area around the School Book Depository, and I don't care what time of day it is, you're gonna see people milling about, pointing up at buildings. And you will see some of the craziest nut jobs anywhere trying to convince you that whoever was involved in it and they know the true information and what happened. There's always people trying to sell you stuff. They have tours where you can go on a tour. You can take like the actual route that Kennedy went on and just all sorts of stuff. It's kind of like a circus down there.

[00:52:52] Chris: There's also an X on the street of exactly where he was shot. 

[00:52:59] Jeff: There is, yep. That's right. So are you prepared to take a stand? Let's start here. Do just in terms of shooting, just in terms of the shooting. Was it only Oswald who did the shooting? 

[00:53:18] Chris: I, I think from so much of what I've read it, it seems that all the evidence is pointing that direction. I did come across one thing that I wasn't aware of. So there was the Warren Commission, but then there was another committee, uh, in the seventies. 

[00:53:37] Jeff: Yes. The House Select Committee on Assassinations. 

[00:53:43] Chris: Yes. So at one point during that, they had some people doing acoustic analysis of the film. Now, I would have questions about that. Like, OK. But the whole idea, I mean, first of all, your audio equipment in the sixties is not the audio equipment that we have now. Nevermind, like I said, the very environment that it was in. I don't know how much we can rely on their analysis of that just because of the quality of all of it. 

[00:54:22] Jeff: They got that audio from, I don't remember what the term is, but it was from a Dallas motorcycle cops recording equipment, and that's what they used to determine their findings. And the motorcycle that they said they got the audio from, the motorcycle cop later said, that's not my audio. They're saying that's from me, but it's not. And he just flat out asked them, if that was my audio, then why didn't you hear the police sirens? Which all geared up right after the shots. Like you would've heard that. And they think now, like their report has been widely discredited, uh, because you're right, they listen to that, that the acoustics of it. And they determined there were four shots. And so they said, OK, well there has to be a second shooter. But that report's been widely discredited. And they think now what they were hearing was, uh, a motorcycle cop's audio from, uh, the Trade Mart. So, it was somebody who was already at the Trade Mart where the Kennedys were headed. They think that's what it came from. But...

[00:55:38] Chris: OK. 

[00:55:38] Jeff: Yeah. I'm like you. I, I think there was just one shooter and that was Oswald. And I remember, so I think they talk about this in the JFK. Well, I know they do. They talk about what happened to Kennedy when he got shot in the head, back and to the left. Right? Back and to the left. Back and to the left. But I didn't get it at the time. But what happened was the exit wound, the, it went, it penetrated his brain and went out the front of his head. And that's gonna cause the head to go back and to the left. 

[00:56:15] Chris: Right. And to the left. 

[00:56:16] Jeff: Yeah. But I remember in JFK they were saying, well, it, of course, it's a, it's somebody hitting his head from the front because his head goes back. And that's not how, that's not how it works with an exit wound. It's gonna, it's gonna knock it back when it's exiting the head. 

[00:56:33] Chris: Right. Yeah. I think for a long time there were, I don't know, I almost had a desire to think that there was more to it. 

[00:56:44] Jeff: Yes. Same here. 

[00:56:45] Chris: And so it's also a little bit difficult for me to put that out of my mind. And, and if, if I were shown clear evidence of all of this stuff, then I would have no issue with it. I think the problem is that we have, we do have incomplete information and so...

[00:57:04] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:57:05] Chris: We, we make assumptions based on the information that we have. And I think with the, the holes, the incomplete part of it, there's that piece of me that almost still wants to think, was there not something bigger here? But that doesn't mean that there is. I mean you look at, at the attempted assassination of Reagan. It turned out to be incredibly simple. It was just a deranged guy. And you know, that could absolutely be the case here. And we haven't ever found anything that says otherwise. 

[00:57:40] Jeff: That's a good point. I remember with the JFK movie, they talked about the umbrella man. Remember that? There was a guy holding a black umbrella on the Grassy Knoll and who is this guy, or whatever. And I know a bunch of conspiracy people, like they focus on the umbrella man, and oh, he was the second shooter or, or whatever. 

[00:58:02] Chris: Well, people claim they saw people running away on the gravel road behind the Grassy Knoll too.

[00:58:09] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:58:10] Chris: But, there's nothing to prove from that. 

[00:58:13] Jeff: No. Do you know about the babushka lady? Did you see any of that? Have you read about the babushka lady? 

[00:58:22] Chris: I don't think so. 

[00:58:23] Jeff: OK. So she's called that because the Russian, the whole Russian babushka scarf thing, and people call her that because you can see her in photos and, and you might be able to see her on the Zapruder film. I don't remember. But, you can see her, uh, filming. She's, she's got an 8mm camera also. And so she's filming. They've never found that lady. They've tried to locate her cuz they wanted to see, you know, her film, but they've never identified her. Now, there's a woman named Beverly Oliver who said in 1970 that she was the babushka lady and that somebody from the FBI or the CIA confiscated her film and never returned it. Which, I don't believe that. There's no evidence that that happened at all. Um, I mean, my God, Abraham Zapruder has the best film that we've seen of this by far. 

[00:59:25] Chris: Right. 

[00:59:26] Jeff: And he got his film back. OK, so we agree. 

[00:59:30] Chris: Unless she caught the second shooter and they don't want anybody to know that.

[00:59:33] Jeff: Right. So we agree Oswald was the lone shooter. That's what all the evidence points to. Do you think it was any kind of a conspiracy, or do you think Oswald was doing it all on his own? 

[00:59:48] Chris: I would say the same thing to that too. There was always the part of me that kind of wanted to believe that there was something bigger to it. I agree that I don't think there's anything out there that really points in that direction. 

[01:00:04] Jeff: Yeah. 

[01:00:05] Chris: There's also incomplete information. I don't think anybody's ever gonna know for a fact. It's, well this is what I believe, based on what we do know. There's a lot of coincidences. I mean, just the very idea that, OK, we had this, this, uh, heightened tension with Russia, and the guy who was the, the trigger man had actually defected to Russia. I mean, there's all kinds of, of coincidences there, which just supports wanting to believe that, but... 

[01:00:42] Jeff: Right. 

[01:00:43] Chris: You can't look at anything and say, oh, yeah, I think this is what happened. But I think, yeah, you want to believe something like that cause it just, I don't know, it makes the story better. But going back to Reagan, like, well, there wasn't anything to it. 

[01:00:59] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And I'm, I'm the same way. Like, especially after I saw JFK, the movie, I was like, I, I was into it like, yeah, there's gotta be other stuff. Thank God I didn't have the internet back then when, because I would've gotten on there and who knows where I would've ended up. I might be one of those crazy people on the street corner downtown, trying to sell tours or whatever. 

[01:01:23] Chris: Having a tin foil hat on. 

[01:01:25] Jeff: Yes. But I'm like you. I mean, there's just not enough evidence there for me to say that there was any kind of a conspiracy. And here's the thing. So this is the same with people who claim that, oh, the US government was behind 9/11 or, or anything like that. People will claim that the government can't do anything, that the government's incompetent, right? They can't even patch the potholes in the street. And in the next breath, they tell me that there's a massive conspiracy between all these government officials to cover this up. How could that be the case? And nothing has ever, ever come out. Nobody's defected and said, hey look, this is what happened. And they have evidence to prove it. Even if somebody says this is what happened, there's been no evidence that there was any conspiratorial act here at all. 

[01:02:16] Chris: Exactly. That's, that's a great point. The, the same thing was being said with Covid, for example, and saying that, you know, that was government manufactured and oh, they just wanna inject you with this vaccine that's gonna alter your DNA. And that's why they came up with the disease in the first place. And the whole thing is a conspiracy. And it's like, do you really think that that many people in all of those levels of government, nevermind the fact that it was international, can keep that secret?

[01:02:49] Jeff: Yeah. 

[01:02:49] Chris: That that number one, yeah. That they can get it organized. And number two, that the secret can be kept. I'm sure this is a quote from someone, but I don't remember who, said the only way that three people can keep a secret, is if two of them are dead. 

[01:03:05] Jeff: Yeah, I've heard that. I've heard that. I like it too. All right. That is the JFK assassination. Happy November 22nd. What, so what is that? 59 years? 

[01:03:21] Chris: Six. Yeah. 59. 

[01:03:23] Jeff: 59 years. And you mentioned 20th. Yeah. I clearly remember when it was the 20th anniversary. So don't we feel old?

[01:03:33] Chris: Every day!

[01:03:38] Jeff: All right. If you like this kind of stuff, as I've said so many times, you are our kind of people. So go ahead and follow us. Whatever platform you're listening to this on, uh, that way you'll get new episodes delivered to you automatically. While you're there, go ahead and rate us, give us five stars if you are so inclined.

And while you're there, write something, leave a review. It doesn't matter what you say. You could say Oswald acted alone. Or you can tell me there was a giant conspiracy. It doesn't matter. Just write something because if you put something down that makes it easier for people to discover this show. If you want to go to our website, we would appreciate that too. That is subpartalks.com. There you can email us. You can leave us a voicemail. If you have suggestions on topics we should cover in future episodes, go ahead and leave those there as well. We will definitely take those into consideration. You can follow us on social media. On Twitter, we are @subpartalks. On Facebook, we are Subpar Talks. If you wanna follow our personal Twitter accounts on there, I am @independentjeff. 

[01:04:46] Chris: And I am @chrisbradfordtx. 

[01:04:49] Jeff: And we've got other social media. You can find those links on our website. And finally, get the word out about Subpar Talks. Talk to your friends, family, colleagues, whoever. Just get the word out about Subpar Talks, because the more people we have listening to this show, the easier it is for us to get you this content each and every week. And that's the JFK assassination. I'm sure there's more there that we didn't cover, and we're probably gonna have people tweeting or emailing or leaving angry voicemails about how we're wrong about something or whatever. But... 

[01:05:26] Chris: That would be great! 

[01:05:27] Jeff: I, and I, look, I don't think there was a conspiracy. I think Oswald acted alone. But one of my favorite quotes is from Aristotle. Aristotle wrote, "The mark of an educated mind is to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." So, let's consider these conspiracies and... 

[01:05:46] Chris: I love that. I love talking about things that I don't agree with. It's still, yeah, it's still entertaining. It expands your mind. 

[01:05:54] Jeff: Yeah. I agree. All right. We will be back next week with another episode. Until then, so long.