E16 - An Episode about Nothing

[00:00:00] Jeff: This week, celebrity encounters, celebrity crushes, justified killings, and getting away with murder. Welcome to Subpar Talks.

Hey everybody. Welcome to Subpar Talks, where we have conversations about everything. I'm Jeff. 

[00:00:33] Chris: And I'm Chris. 

[00:00:34] Jeff: Thank you so much for joining us yet again for another episode here. And yes, as always, before we get rolling, we do have our standard disclaimer, listener discretion, advised. There will be profanity, perhaps a lot of it from episode to episode. And in this podcast, we will from time to time touch on some hot button issues, touchy subjects. But the thing is, we inject our humor into all of this stuff. And if that doesn't set well with you, that's OK. Maybe we are not your cup of tea. But for everybody else, sit back, grab your favorite beverage because here we go with this week's topic.

So this week we are truly going from topic to topic, and we just hit record and we're gonna let this go wherever it takes us. And the first thing I wanna bring up is something I saw on Twitter. I don't remember what I saw this on. It was on, on Twitter, but I don't remember what the post was. And somebody commented, you know, in the replies, look what I saw at Dodger Stadium this summer, and it was a parking space. And in front of that parking space it said Reserved for Vandalay Industries. 

[00:01:56] Chris: Oh really? 

[00:01:58] Jeff: Yeah. So I quote tweeted that, you know, I posted it to my Twitter and I tagged Jason Alexander and I said, this must be your spot, right? And he liked it. 

[00:02:12] Chris: Really? 

[00:02:13] Jeff: Yeah. I saw that this morning that he had liked my tweet.

[00:02:17] Chris: Very cool. 

[00:02:19] Jeff: Yeah, 

[00:02:20] Chris: It is. Cuz imagine how many he must see. 

[00:02:23] Jeff: Oh, I know. Yeah. I didn't figure he would. I just thought it'd be funny if he saw it, or even better if he commented. 

[00:02:29] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:02:29] Jeff: I meant to tell you this. This has been a while ago. I forgot about this. There's a podcast called, This Podcast Is Making Me Thirsty, and it's all about Seinfeld. And he will interview like guests who have been on there. 

[00:02:50] Chris: It's Jason Alexander? 

[00:02:52] Jeff: No, no, no. Just the guy who does the podcast. 

[00:02:55] Chris: Oh the guy, OK. 

[00:02:56] Jeff: One of those that he tagged who he wanted to interview was Ava, the secretary. You know George's secretary? 

[00:03:05] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:03:06] Jeff: And he was like talking about how he would like to get her on the show or whatever, and I just replied, is it doable? And she responded, it's definitely doable. 

[00:03:20] Chris: Are you serious? 

[00:03:21] Jeff: I am serious. Yeah. 

[00:03:23] Chris: That's awesome. 

[00:03:23] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. That was cool. Cool to see. So, sticking on Seinfeld I guess, I saw somebody ask this question on Twitter this morning. What is Newman's first name? Do we know his first name? And I'll tell you what people were saying, but I didn't know this, if that's the case. 

[00:03:45] Chris: Now, that's really weird. I never thought about it. 

[00:03:49] Jeff: His business card just says Newman. 

[00:03:51] Chris: And so many people, we always talked about Kramer's first name before we knew it. Like...

[00:03:57] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:03:57] Chris: What's Kramer? 

[00:03:59] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:04:00] Chris: I don't know. 

[00:04:02] Jeff: They said it's Francis. Francis Newman. 

[00:04:05] Chris: Francis. 

[00:04:07] Jeff: Yeah. And I think they might have put his middle name too. But I don't know where that comes from. The Super, you know the reverse people guy, he called him Mr. Newman, but...

[00:04:18] Chris: Right. 

[00:04:19] Jeff: I don't know where Francis would've come up. I don't know. He's just always Newman. 

[00:04:25] Chris: I have no idea. Yeah, that's funny. I think I just accepted that he was only Newman, but... 

[00:04:31] Jeff: Right. 

[00:04:31] Chris: There was something where we could never accept that Kramer was just Kramer. I mean, that was a , a huge episode to have Kramer's first name come out. 

[00:04:43] Jeff: So that was a big deal when we were gonna find out Kramer's first name, like they really plugged that.

[00:04:51] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:04:51] Jeff: Do you also remember this? This was before I watched Seinfeld, but you remember when he got the haircut? Um, it was The Barber episode, whatever that's called. And they promoed that with a blue dot over his face. 

[00:05:09] Chris: Yes, I remember that. 

[00:05:11] Jeff: And that was from, what was that from? There was some trial or something.

[00:05:15] Chris: The, the twins. Were they twins, or brothers anyway, that killed their parents? 

[00:05:21] Jeff: The Menendez brothers? 

[00:05:22] Chris: Uh, yes. 

[00:05:24] Jeff: So that was the blue dot stuff? 

[00:05:25] Chris: That was the blue dot, yes. Here's somebody saying, "Character Newman played by Wayne Knight is never referred to as anything other than Newman. But in the 20th episode of Seinfeld's 6th season entitled Doodle, it's revealed that Newman's first name is Francis."

[00:05:45] Jeff: Well, who revealed that? 

[00:05:46] Chris: I don't know. I just saw that episode not too long ago and I don't remember that. But... 

[00:05:52] Jeff: What was he doing in The Doodle? 

[00:05:55] Chris: That was the fleas. 

[00:05:58] Jeff: Oh yes. 

[00:06:00] Chris: Right? 

[00:06:01] Jeff: That's when he's got fleas. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's the episode. I love that scene where he is scratching and he's trying to keep Jerry from seeing. 

[00:06:13] Chris: It's hilarious. 

[00:06:15] Jeff: But I don't know anybody calling him Francis.

[00:06:18] Chris: I don't either. 

[00:06:20] Jeff: I'll have to watch the episode. 

[00:06:21] Chris: This says, somebody else posted on here the same thing about that episode. I, well now I gotta see it. 

[00:06:28] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:06:29] Chris: I don't know. 

[00:06:30] Jeff: That's a great episode. So yeah, those are my Seinfeld things that I was gonna bring to the table. 

[00:06:37] Chris: That's very cool that, that he liked it and that that lady commented.

[00:06:44] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:06:44] Chris: I wonder what she's looking like these days. 

[00:06:47] Jeff: I don't know. I think I probably looked at her profile picture when she commented, but I can't remember. 

[00:06:55] Chris: Of course then you never know when the profile picture's from. 

[00:06:58] Jeff: True. Yeah. 

[00:07:00] Chris: It could be from better days. 

[00:07:04] Jeff: No doubt. And the fact that that's been what, almost, well, 25 years ago.

[00:07:12] Chris: 20, 25, Yeah. 20. Well, yeah, 25 easy. Yeah. There was a thing on, it was a TikTok video, and I don't remember what the video was about. I mean, with Alyssa Milano, who knows, because she's political and all kinds of other stuff in the kinds of posts that she does. But yeah, she had a video on TikTok and I commented on it and she liked the comment. And like, this was a verified account. I mean, obviously there's so many people out there and they say, oh, this is so-and-so, and it's clearly not. But yeah, it was. I just thought it was kind of cool to hey, you liked it. OK. 

[00:07:54] Jeff: Right. There's an interaction there. 

[00:07:57] Chris: I've been seen. 

[00:07:59] Jeff: Right. She was my first celebrity crush, I think. I'd have to think back, but I was an avid watcher of Who's The Boss, and she was a big reason for it.

[00:08:11] Chris: Yeah, I really liked her on there. So that just made me question the same thing, was she? But I think I, I think I know who my, my first one had to have been before that. It would have been Dana Plato on Different Strokes. 

[00:08:27] Jeff: Yeah. OK. 

[00:08:29] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:08:30] Jeff: What, speaking of going downhill. 

[00:08:33] Chris: Man, things did not go well for her. 

[00:08:37] Jeff: No, they didn't. You know what's amazing from that show is... 

[00:08:42] Chris: Didn't go well for anybody. 

[00:08:43] Jeff: Willis. Yeah, Willis, the one that was the most messed up of any of them, he's still alive and kicking. 

[00:08:51] Chris: Yes. He was in prison for what, cocaine and... 

[00:08:55] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:08:56] Chris: I don't know what. Of course, she was all over drugs. I don't know if she was, I think she was arrested, but I don't know if she was ever, like really put away.

[00:09:06] Jeff: I, I remember seeing there was a mugshot. I remember seeing that. 

[00:09:10] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:09:11] Jeff: She was really messed up. She got into porn and drugs. 

[00:09:15] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:09:15] Jeff: And whatever else. And then just killed herself. Was that on purpose or did she just overdose? I don't remember. 

[00:09:25] Chris: I don't either. I was thinking she OD'd, but I'm not sure. I don't know.

[00:09:30] Jeff: So thinking about that, you said before Alyssa Milano. I was really young, but Lynda Carter and, and Daisy Duke. So, but I was too young to know. I knew I liked it, but I didn't really know why. You know what I mean? 

[00:09:50] Chris: Right. 

[00:09:51] Jeff: So I guess you could put those two before, but Alyssa Milano was the one where I was like actually conscious of, oh yeah, I like her. 

[00:09:59] Chris: That's true. 

[00:09:59] Jeff: I think I still like her. I don't know what she looks like now, but... 

[00:10:03] Chris: Alyssa Milano? 

[00:10:04] Jeff: Yeah. I mean, she's like my age or a year older I think. 

[00:10:09] Chris: Yeah. She's a little bit of a Two Face. Like you can see her on some days and it's like, yeah, she, I mean obviously different. I mean, she's older, but...

[00:10:20] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:10:21] Chris: But like, yeah, she's, she can still look good. And then there's other times, makes you wonder. But, Lynda Carter, yeah, she was another one. And I agree. I, and she was also already an adult. I mean, like, you know, Alyssa Milano is basically your age, near my ...Actually, wait. Oh, she's my age. 

[00:10:44] Jeff: Is she really? 

[00:10:45] Chris: Yeah, within like days, I think.

But anyway, I mean, so she's roughly our age. And Dana Plato, she was older, but she was not an adult. She was a teenager. 

[00:10:57] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:10:58] Chris: So Lynda Carter, yeah. I, I recognized, I recognized the beauty, but I was like, well, she's just a pretty woman, you know? 

[00:11:09] Jeff: Yeah. A Wonder Woman. 

[00:11:11] Chris: Daisy Duke. I don't know. She was a woman, but like, that was, I was OK with that.

[00:11:21] Jeff: Same here. 

[00:11:23] Chris: That was alright. 

[00:11:25] Jeff: So you said verified account. That makes me think. So, I follow Reese Witherspoon on Twitter because, obviously. 

[00:11:34] Chris: Obviously. 

[00:11:36] Jeff: But every time I like something that she has posted, uh, I don't know if I've ever commented on anything she posted. But I'll like it. Then I'll get a notice that somebody has followed me and it's somebody named Reese Witherspoon, and it's just her picture. But it, they have like two followers, and it's just totally fake. I don't know what the point of that is, but every single time. 

[00:12:02] Chris: I know. I have, I think I have four or five Reese Witherspoons following me on TikTok . It's so stupid. 

[00:12:11] Jeff: I know. 

[00:12:11] Chris: Like what are you doing? 

[00:12:13] Jeff: Yeah, what's the point? I don't know. I think she's my age, Reese Witherspoon. Maybe that's who I was thinking of as being around my age. 

[00:12:22] Chris: That could be about right, yeah. 

[00:12:23] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:12:25] Chris: Yeah. She's all right. I'm trying to think. I don't know when's the earliest I knew who she was. She was in Pleasantville, which was '98. 

[00:12:35] Jeff: That's probably the first thing I saw her in.

[00:12:37] Chris: That could have been about the first thing for me too, I guess. I don't know if there was anything before that. But she is one of those people that has, like if you look at her then and now through those years, she has matured, obviously. Like she looks older. But it's just, it's kinda like the fine wine, you know?

[00:13:03] Jeff: Yeah. I know. 

[00:13:03] Chris: I mean, she just, it's like you look older in a really good way. 

[00:13:08] Jeff: Yeah. Then, so that was '98. Election, I think is '99. 

[00:13:14] Chris: I think so. Um, what was the other one? I was, um, Cruel Intentions was right around there too. 

[00:13:21] Jeff: I've never seen that. 

[00:13:23] Chris: Ryan Phillippe and, um, what was that girl's name? Selma something I think. Not Hayak. 

[00:13:31] Jeff: Selma Hayak? 

[00:13:33] Chris: I don't remember her name. She's been in other stuff too. Oh, she was in Legally Blonde, the one I'm talking about. She was the dark haired one. That ended up getting engaged to her former boyfriend. 

[00:13:50] Jeff: Yeah. I don't know her name though. 

[00:13:52] Chris: I don't, she was in what did I just say, Cruel Intentions also. And I think that's probably where she met Ryan Phillippe, cuz they were married, you know. 

[00:14:01] Jeff: Oh, they were? Were? 

[00:14:02] Chris: Reese Witherspoon. Were, yeah. 

[00:14:05] Jeff: Oh, Reese Witherspoon and Ryan Phillippe were married? 

[00:14:08] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:14:09] Jeff: Oh, I didn't know that. 

[00:14:10] Chris: Yeah. They were married when, um, she won her Oscar for Walk the Line. She won for that and then Crash won Best Picture that same year. And, and he was, he was in that. 

[00:14:30] Jeff: So, is she married now? I think she's married again. 

[00:14:33] Chris: She is married, yeah. Yeah. Missed that. I don't know. I don't know where I was. It was a, it was a small window, I guess. 

[00:14:46] Jeff: You missed the boat. 

[00:14:47] Chris: Sure did.

OK. So I got a question for you. Is there ever a time that it's OK to kill someone? 

[00:15:00] Jeff: Yes, but let me think of one. Yes, if somebody's about to kill me or my family, or I mean anybody that I, I guess any other person. If they're about to kill another person, then I take them out, then that's justified, yeah. 

[00:15:20] Chris: So, legally you can always stand on that ground, at least in Texas. 

[00:15:25] Jeff: Right, right. Yeah, definitely. Stand your ground. 

[00:15:30] Chris: So even outside the law, just from a moral sense, you could still say, that's OK? 

[00:15:38] Jeff: If I like, hypothetical, if I knew what this person was about to do, if this, if I knew this person was about to kill a bunch of people. Like if I saw somebody walking into a school with a rifle, would I be justified in taking them out? They haven't done anything yet, but I think they're probably going to. 

[00:16:01] Chris: So we're not just gonna turn the other cheek? 

[00:16:04] Jeff: No. What would Jesus do? 

[00:16:08] Chris: Right. 

[00:16:09] Jeff: He'd open the door for the guy. There you go. 

[00:16:11] Chris: Yep. 

[00:16:12] Jeff: Come in. Yeah, I don't know. What do you think? 

[00:16:15] Chris: What about, OK. No, I would, I would totally say that too. Like, absolutely. If my life's in danger, somebody I know, care about, all of that, absolutely. And, and yes, if in, in the same situation, if, if I could know, hey, this person's about to do harm to a bunch of other people, like going into school, yeah. I would say the same thing. So then, that makes me think about the movie and book A Time To Kill, is... 

[00:16:52] Jeff: Oh yeah. 

[00:16:53] Chris: What about a situation like that? 

[00:16:56] Jeff: So, that was a great movie. I never read the book, but the movie was really, really good. And I remember arguing with my mom after we saw it in the theater. I was like, but he did do it. He's guilty of murder. And she was going back that, well, it was justified. Look what he did. He was, he was justified in doing it. And I kept going back to the fact that, well, he still, like, the law says that's murder. But I don't know. I, I see, now I see both sides of it. I see both sides of the argument for sure. But what if that happened in every single case where somebody was sexually assaulted, even a kid? 

[00:17:45] Chris: Right. It'd be like the wild west. It's everybody taking the law into their own hands. 

[00:17:50] Jeff: Right, which we can't have. So that's why we prosecute those individuals. But on the other hand, I get it. Yeah. 

[00:17:58] Chris: Yeah. No, I, I hate to say it, but yeah. I get why he did it. This kind of goes back to our show on the death penalty. It's like, if someone did something to a person that you know, love, do you want them to die? Now, you brought up a good point on that show, as should the government be the one to cause that death, to be the one to bring that forth. Obviously that's not the case here. You've got the victim, yes, the dad is the victim as well as the girl. But you've got the victim carrying it out. I totally get that. I said that on the show. I can totally understand where if something like that happens, that yeah, you just want that person gone, eliminated. You did this to me or somebody that I care about, you're gone too. But from a legal standpoint, it was murder. There's no question it was premeditated. 

[00:19:09] Jeff: Right. 

[00:19:09] Chris: And he actually did it with witnesses. 

[00:19:13] Jeff: Speaking of the death penalty, um, remember we were talking about, uh, last meals, and how in Texas now, they're not allowed a specific last meal. They have to choose among what the general population ate that day. They can have as much of it, but they don't get any kind of special, uh, meals or whatever. The person who ruined that was one of those racist, neo-Nazi fucks who killed James Byrd. You remember that? They, they strapped him to the back of a car. 

[00:19:47] Chris: Oh yeah.

[00:19:47] Jeff: He was the one who ruined that for everybody else because he ordered, I, I've heard before what it was. I heard this recently since we've recorded that episode. He ordered just a shitload of food and they had to accommodate all of that cuz that was the, the policy. And then they delivered it to him and said, he said, no, I want it. Thanks. And that was it. So they're like, all right, well fuck you and fuck everybody else from now. So, no more specific requests. 

[00:20:19] Chris: It's always somebody ruins it for everybody. 

[00:20:22] Jeff: It is. But, in that instance, like, and I think, I know one guy, I'm assuming they both got the death penalty and I don't know if they've been executed now. I mean, that guy has, but the other one, I don't know if he's still on death row or not. But, I've stated my reasons why I'm against the death penalty in the previous episode. If anybody wants to hear that, go back and listen. But, I would have no problem if the family of James Byrd was allowed to get in the car and strap those two guys to the bumper and just hit the gas. Here we go. 

[00:20:54] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:20:55] Jeff: Like, see what this feels like, assholes. 

[00:20:57] Chris: Yeah. That is just unbelievable. Seriously. 

[00:21:00] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:21:01] Chris: Like, what the fuck is the matter with you? 

[00:21:04] Jeff: Yeah. And every time I hear, every time I hear about Jasper, the town of Jasper, somebody's from Jasper, whatever, like that's what I think of. Like, I'd never heard of that town before, but now, you've got a stain.

[00:21:17] Chris: Yeah. You need to move. 

[00:21:19] Jeff: Right. So, is it ever OK to kill? This is, I don't remember the, the name of this. It's like, uh, something you'd encounter in philosophy. But I remember hearing about this for the first time in probably junior high or whatever, but it involves a, uh, like a train or a trolley. The trolley is headed toward five people who are strapped to the track, but you're at the switch control. And if you switch it, there's one person tied to the track where the trolley will hit. If you don't do anything, you just let the train go, the train's gonna run over five people. If you switch it, it's gonna switch the track and it's gonna run over one person. So which do you do? 

[00:22:12] Chris: Well, I'd have to do the one person. 

[00:22:14] Jeff: But then you've just murdered that one person. If you just let it go, you haven't done anything. 

[00:22:22] Chris: OK. So especially from a philosophical standpoint, do you not, if you have the ability to switch the track and you don't, do you not have a responsibility for those five? 

[00:22:37] Jeff: Probably a moral responsibility, I would say. But legally, no. Unless you're, like, the train operator. But I'm just saying if you happened upon this, just...

[00:22:49] Chris: Yeah.

[00:22:50] Jeff: You know, at random for whatever reason. So which, which do you do? Cause if you, if you do reroute it, you are killing that person. You're at least complicit in their murder. If you just let it go, then you're not legally culpable at all. It bothers me. I like stuff like this. It bothers me. 

[00:23:11] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:23:12] Jeff: But I like thinking about it.

[00:23:13] Chris: Yeah. That's disturbing. Well, and I was thinking about it more from just the philosophical standpoint. That, philosophically, yeah, I'm gonna sacrifice one versus five. But yeah, legally that's no good. I don't care for that at all. 

[00:23:29] Jeff: Right. So how about this? I've wondered this. And there was a time when I actually did, I wouldn't say worried, but it did enter my mind from time to time when the US invaded, uh, Afghanistan first and then Iraq like a year later. I was still of the age where if there was a draft, like, I could be called. 

[00:23:55] Chris: Right. 

[00:23:56] Jeff: And I had some conversations with my wife and my parents, like, what would you, what would you do? And I said right away, we're going to Canada, like here we go. But I wonder what I would've done, like, and what would you have done back in World War II? Or Vietnam? And I think about, and this is a dangerous thing too, but if I'm basing it on my views, like my personal views, I think there was a lot more merit in fighting the Nazis and the Japanese than there was in Vietnam going to fight the North Vietnamese. Like, I think those are just two totally different levels. I think World War II was justified. I don't think Vietnam was, but you see what I'm saying? How that's dangerous? 

[00:24:51] Chris: Right? 

[00:24:51] Jeff: Like if, if, if citizens just start playing that game, then your country might cease to be a country. Yeah. 

[00:24:58] Chris: Right. Exactly. Yeah. I was just thinking that as you were saying that about if you compare it to say World War II, that's a good comparison. I know like with the first Persian Gulf War when they were talking about whether or not there would be a draft for that, my mom immediately said, well, we're leaving. 

[00:25:22] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:25:23] Chris: I mean, just that, you know, well, we'll go somewhere. We'll go to Canada, whatever. But that does make you realize where some of the not having lived through it makes you realize where some of that hatred came from in the Vietnam War, of those people who did dodge the draft. Like, hey, I stayed here and took it. I went like they told me to and you just copped out. 

[00:25:54] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:25:54] Chris: Now, yeah, that's based on personal feelings and whether you think we should be in it anyway. But the larger point is this is what the country's doing. Are you supporting the country?

[00:26:10] Jeff: Uh, there's a really good, well there are a lot of really good All In The Family episodes, but this one in particular, I don't know if you've seen it. But Mike has a friend who had dodged the draft and I think had moved to Canada. But then he had, he was visiting back in, in New York. And, and of course they're trying to keep that from Archie, you know. But Archie finds out and the guy's dad is there and um, and I don't remember, I don't remember what exactly he says, but I remember after hearing it, like it was really poignant what he said and how he kind of gives both sides, you know, you did what you thought was right, he did what he thought was right. And, I said the guy's dad, it might have been somebody else who lost his son in Vietnam, I don't remember. But, I just remember thinking it was a really, really good episode. Have you seen it? 

[00:27:06] Chris: I did see it about a year ago, and I don't remember seeing it before that. So it did seem new to me. And you're right, it was a dad of someone who was killed. 

[00:27:19] Jeff: OK. That's what it was, yeah. 

[00:27:20] Chris: And that, yeah, that was a huge thing is they didn't want him to know either really. Because like, how is he gonna feel? His son was killed and this guy is alive because he just got out of it. And, and Archie was furious.

[00:27:40] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:27:40] Chris: He was absolutely livid. And it, it was a, it was a weird episode in terms of Archie's reaction to it all and how it ended, because Archie said he was just gonna need time. He's like, I, I just gotta have time, like, to deal with it all because Archie never would want to admit he's wrong. 

[00:28:06] Jeff: Right. 

[00:28:06] Chris: Or, and, and even in that case, just of a changed opinion. And I think it was becoming obvious that he was recognizing both sides also. 

[00:28:20] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:28:20] Chris: He was now on that fence, but couldn't say he was on the fence and so was just saying, oh, I need that time. But yeah, that would be, that'd be terrible. Like, you're sitting there and you lost someone and here's somebody else who just said, oh, I decided not to do it.

[00:28:39] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:28:40] Chris: So going back to Afghanistan, Iraq, all of that, you said, OK, you said you would leave. Is that because you just didn't wanna do it, or really were against it? And I'm talking about, let's leave Iraq out of it cuz that kind of, that's a little bit different situation too, the whole weapons of mass destruction. So, let's just talk about Afghanistan. Like, our impetus in going into Afghanistan was about the terrorist attacks. 

[00:29:19] Jeff: Right. Yeah. I don't remember specifically thinking or even contemplating, like, what that would mean if I got drafted. I don't remember thinking about that after Afghanistan. It seems like the Afghanistan thing happened so fast cuz it was in October of 2001, I think when we invaded. And then it was not too long after that to where we were told, at the time, you know, the Taliban government is, is on the run and you know, we're setting up a new government and all that. So I don't really remember thinking about all the implications of that until we invaded Iraq. But going into Afghanistan, in my opinion, was infinitely more justified than going into Iraq. So, I don't know. In retrospect, I mean maybe, but I also don't want to get shot at. I don't want, you know... 

[00:30:14] Chris: I don't either. 

[00:30:15] Jeff: I've said before, like, I would be terrible in the military. I just wouldn't, like, I don't know. I don't think I could handle it. 

[00:30:21] Chris: So, I think I told you this before, but years ago my son had a birthday party at a paintball place and took him there. And the way we played paintball, we were the amateurs there anyway, so they gave us whatever guns they gave us. And, and the guns are, they're different in terms of how fast they will shoot and I mean how quickly they will shoot, like, can you rapid fire and things like that. And they're different in terms of the pressure that they shoot the paintball with. And so, you know, with us being on this amateur field and all, we had whatever we had that was lower powered, you can't shoot as many as fast, things like that. Now, I got hit plenty of times and it hurts, but OK. It just hurts. As we were leaving, we were walking by one of the fields where these people were like professional paint ballers. I mean, they had on all the gear, they had the high powered guns, both in terms of the air pressure they shoot with and they could double trigger and rapid fire that thing. And when they told them to go, it was a frightening thing just walking by it. Because the barriers that they had on this field, they were like blow up rubber obstacles. And, point being, when the paintballs hit them, you hear the thuds, the impacts. And so there was a lot of that in addition to hearing the gun shoot. And that's what I mean, just walking by it and you see these two teams coming outta nowhere, going at each other, shooting like that. And it really hit me, like, holy shit. What if that were real? 

[00:32:21] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:32:21] Chris: What if you were really in the situation that your life is on the line, you are hunkered down behind something, hoping that they don't find you, that nothing hits you. Or you're in the situation that you have to come out from that. 

[00:32:39] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:32:40] Chris: You know, and, and lose your cover and are literally defending yourself. Man, you wanna talk about shitting your pants. 

[00:32:49] Jeff: It's terrifying. Yeah. 

[00:32:50] Chris: I cannot imagine. I, I'd be scared enough on that paintball field, and I just, I just can't imagine.

[00:32:58] Jeff: And you know you're gonna live in the, on a paintball field. Yeah. 

[00:33:01] Chris: Yeah. Well it's like we said with the, the firing squad. Just get it over with, you know. If that's what, if that's what's gonna happen, then please just end it. 

[00:33:12] Jeff: I tell you what was jolting for me was the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan.

[00:33:18] Chris: Oh man. Yeah. 

[00:33:20] Jeff: That was so intense. That whole thing I had read about before, but to see it portrayed that way and people say, I mean, at the time World War II veterans were saying, yep, that's exactly how it was. I can't imagine that. 

[00:33:34] Chris: I can't either. 

[00:33:37] Jeff: You're on that boat and you know what's waiting for you and they start shooting. The Germans start shooting and you go into the water. But then bullets are coming in the water, killing people there, and you have to go into that, which is unnatural. It's like running into a burning building. Like, you're not supposed to be doing this, but you gotta do it. 

[00:33:58] Chris: Right. 

[00:33:58] Jeff: I just can't imagine that. That was, that whole thing was intense and it keeps going. It's like 30 minutes long, right? 

[00:34:04] Chris: It's long, yeah. Well, and you see them coming up to the beach and there's this shield thing up on the front of the boat. 

[00:34:12] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:34:12] Chris: And then they just drop the shield, like, holy shit, don't do that. 

[00:34:17] Jeff: Yeah, yeah. Put it back up. In fact, let's just make a U-turn. Let's go back. 

[00:34:22] Chris: Right. 

[00:34:23] Jeff: I don't generally like war movies, but there have been at least a couple, I guess that I think are really good. Saving Private Ryan is great. Full Metal Jacket, did you ever see that? 

[00:34:34] Chris: Yes. That's a good one. But I, I can't remember as much of it after they were in Vietnam, which I think is about half the movie still.

[00:34:43] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:34:44] Chris: But the first half, I mean, it's great, but it's only great because I was on the outside of it. 

[00:34:52] Jeff: Oh, I know. 

[00:34:53] Chris: I mean, if you were in that bootcamp, holy shit. 

[00:34:57] Jeff: I know. And I just remember thinking like, I mean, it starts out kind of lighthearted. But because you're on the outside, and that opening scene of course with the drill sergeant is just one of the best scenes ever.

[00:35:10] Chris: And you know, he was a real drill sergeant too. 

[00:35:13] Jeff: Yeah. And I've heard a lot of that was just ad-libbed, like, this is what I heard, and here we go. 

[00:35:18] Chris: Right. 

[00:35:18] Jeff: So good. I think of that movie as being divided into halves and the first half is like, because you're on the outside, it's kind of funny. It's got some funny parts, especially the first scene. But then it just takes that dark turn right before they go to Vietnam and it's like, man. It just leaves you with a totally different feeling than what you had earlier in the movie. It's really good. 

[00:35:41] Chris: Yeah, it really is. Well, and I, speaking of Saving Private Ryan and how realistic that was, I've heard that part in Full Metal Jacket in bootcamp is about as realistic as it can get for Marine bootcamp.

[00:35:57] Jeff: Well, that seems terrible. 

[00:35:59] Chris: Well, I mean that, that tells me, like you said, tells me right there, I have no business being in the military. 

[00:36:07] Jeff: Nope. Do we consider Good Morning Vietnam to be a war movie? I don't know. I was just thinking about Vietnam, Vietnam movies. Doesn't really have a lot of war scenes in it.

[00:36:18] Chris: I couldn't even tell you much about that. I've, I think I've only seen it once. I don't think I've seen it more. Yeah, I don't think I've seen it more than once, and that was a long time ago. 

[00:36:27] Jeff: Oh, I love that movie. It's so good. 

[00:36:30] Chris: I'm sure I, I need to see it again. 

[00:36:32] Jeff: Yeah, you do. Speaking of ad-libbed, I think Robin Williams ad-libbed. You know how he was, just going 90 to nothing. I think he ad-libbed a lot of that DJ stuff. 

[00:36:41] Chris: Yeah, I bet he did. I'll tell you what is absolutely one of my favorite, probably the favorite of his, is Goodwill Hunting. 

[00:36:51] Jeff: Oh, yeah. Great movie. 

[00:36:53] Chris: I loved him in, I, I, the whole movie is good, but he was great in that. And speaking of ad-libbing, there were several times like of him with Matt Damon that it was ad-libbed.

[00:37:08] Jeff: Yeah. And, uh, Matt Damon with Ben Affleck and whoever those other guys were like, they ad-libbed a lot of that. I remember in the car, like when they're in the car, they're just talking. 

[00:37:19] Chris: Oh, that's right. Yeah. Well, and the idea that Matt Damon and Ben Affleck wrote that too. 

[00:37:25] Jeff: Yeah. And they knew each other. They grew, I think they grew up together, and they were like, this is how people talk from where we grew up, so.

[00:37:35] Chris: Right. 

[00:37:35] Jeff: Yeah. So we'll just ad-lib and go from there. Yeah, it was really good. 

[00:37:40] Chris: I remember, um, Matt Damon was interviewed, well, he may have been with Ben Affleck too, but they were interviewed on Oprah one time soon after the movie came out. And, you know, I mean, their stardom had just shot up already because of that.

[00:37:56] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:37:56] Chris: And Oprah said something about like, could you believe this, you know, that this is the way it's been going, and you know, what did you expect to get from it when you put this out. And Matt Damon was like, we would've done it for a piece of chicken. Like, they just, they just wanted, you know, they just wanted to do it.

[00:38:18] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:38:18] Chris: And like, whatever it is, it is. And look what that turned into is crazy. But that was, that was amazing. That movie, it was funny, it was entertaining, but it was so deep. Like way deep. 

[00:38:34] Jeff: Yes, it was. 

[00:38:35] Chris: And, and Robin Williams added so much to that. 

[00:38:38] Jeff: Yeah, it was fantastic. There's a movie with Ben Affleck, I saw it about a year ago. I don't know when it came out, called The Town. Have you seen that? 

[00:38:48] Chris: I have. That was good. 

[00:38:49] Jeff: That was good. It was really good. Yeah. 

[00:38:51] Chris: I haven't seen it in a while, but it was good. And that was a, that was a Boston thing. 

[00:38:55] Jeff: Yeah. It was one of those I saw on Netflix and I was like, huh, I've never heard of that. And then I look it up on IMDb, of course, and it had like a seven point something and I'm like, hmm, OK. And yeah it was good. 

[00:39:07] Chris: Yeah, I think I only saw it once and it was quite some time ago, but I, I remember I liked it. It was really good. 

[00:39:13] Jeff: Have you seen, um, oh God, speaking of Matt Damon. Oh, uh, The Talented Mr. Ripley? 

[00:39:21] Chris: A long time ago. 

[00:39:22] Jeff: Holy hell. 

[00:39:24] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:39:25] Jeff: We saw that in the theater and it was so slow, and what the hell. I remember it ended kind of abruptly and we were in the theater and people started laughing like, what did we just watch?

[00:39:42] Chris: Like, that's it? I know. 

[00:39:43] Jeff: That's it. Yeah. And didn't it get, like, it got awards, I think. I don't remember what it, it just, are you kidding me? 

[00:39:51] Chris: Oh, yeah. It was well received. Yeah. 

[00:39:53] Jeff: Oh, well, not by me. 

[00:39:55] Chris: Yeah. At least by critics. I wasn't bothered by it. I, it, it left me wanting something. Like, kind of like that. Like, is this it? But I was, I think I was a little more intrigued by it than completely put off by it. Like, OK, well that's kind of interesting. I mean, this guy could just become whatever he needed or wanted to become. 

[00:40:21] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:40:22] Chris: Clearly a deranged level of something. 

[00:40:27] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:40:27] Chris: Um, but, but yeah, the ending was like, what did I, what just happened?

[00:40:34] Jeff: Right. Yeah, and then that's it. Like, yeah, the, they started rolling the credits and we're all looking around and people started laughing. I was like, I can't believe we just spent two hours watching that. 

[00:40:46] Chris: Now I'll tell you the movie that left me feeling like that, The Blair Witch. Are you fucking kidding me?

[00:40:55] Jeff: Yeah, I know it. 

[00:40:56] Chris: I sat through all of that, and this is how it ends? 

[00:41:02] Jeff: That's what I get? Yeah. 

[00:41:03] Chris: Yeah. And that was one where people were, well, people were laughing. I remember sitting there shaking my head like, you've gotta be kidding me. . 

[00:41:14] Jeff: That's the only movie that I've gone to see by myself. 

[00:41:19] Chris: Really? 

[00:41:21] Jeff: Sit there by myself like some loser. Yeah. So I've heard about that movie since. But, uh, like the whole marketing idea, the whole marketing thing was, we're gonna present this as if it's a true story. And that was the way that people were supposed to go into the theater. But I don't know how, I mean, when is that movie, '99 I think, 2000. Somewhere around there. 

[00:41:51] Chris: Yeah, right about that. 

[00:41:52] Jeff: So there's no social media, but I, somehow it, people figured out, OK, no, it's not real, it's just fiction. And so I heard that, OK, it's not real. If I had gone into it, and evidently people, some people were still thinking this way when they saw it, that it was an actual true story, that would've freaked me out. But I knew it was fake. And so, yeah, it got done and I was like, eh, OK. That's just whatever. I saw it cuz the whole world's talking about it, and now I've seen it. But I've seen way better horror movies than that for sure. 

[00:42:29] Chris: Yeah. I knew it wasn't real, but that was fine. Like, I don't care. I mean, obviously a, a good, scary movie that does happen to be a true story. That's really cool. Exorcism of Emily Rose. That'll freak all the shit out of you. 

[00:42:48] Jeff: Yeah, I know it. Yeah. 

[00:42:49] Chris: But like, it's fine if I know, if it, I know that it's not a true story. But, like I said, you gotta be kidding me. 

[00:42:59] Jeff: Chris Rock was doing a bit, some stand up, and he was talking about The Blair Witch Project, and he said that movie had a budget of $55,000. I've seen that movie. Somewhere, somebody's walking around with $50,000 in their pockets.

[00:43:17] Chris: That's awesome. 

[00:43:18] Jeff: Yeah. That's good. Yeah. The Exorcism of Emily Rose. Do you like The Exorcist?

[00:43:25] Chris: I liked it, yeah. Now that's one that I haven't seen in, it's been longer since I've seen that one. 

[00:43:33] Jeff: I watched it, uh, I mean, I've seen it several times. I watched it last year. My kids were begging to watch it too, and I was like, no, we're not there yet. But, yeah, that's good. It, it, it's more of a, it's not a jump out and scare you kind of movie. It's just a freak you out, like holy fuck, kind of movie. 

[00:43:55] Chris: Yeah.

[00:43:55] Jeff: And I remember, so that movie came out in 1973, I think it is. In 2000, they re-released it in theaters because they added some scenes that they couldn't make 'em look as real back in the 70s, but now they have the technology to do it, so they re-released it. And my wife and I, well we weren't married yet, but we went and saw it in the theater and, that's the only movie where I've come home and I was freaked. Like I turned on all my lights. I pulled back the shower curtain. Like I was, I was sufficiently freaked out. 

[00:44:33] Chris: Yeah. The problem is, whatever that is that's gonna get you, you might not even see it.

[00:44:39] Jeff: Right. It's not gonna be hiding behind the shower curtain. 

[00:44:41] Chris: Right. 

[00:44:42] Jeff: It's just gonna come into my body and I won't even know it. 

[00:44:45] Chris: Yeah. One of those scenes, uh, that was added was her coming down the stairs. 

[00:44:51] Jeff: Oh my god. 

[00:44:52] Chris: And I don't even know how to describe that. Like, is she like crab-like, or...

[00:44:57] Jeff: She comes down backwards. She, she comes down the stairs on all fours, but she's backwards, head first. 

[00:45:05] Chris: Yes. 

[00:45:05] Jeff: And then I think blood starts pouring out of her mouth. 

[00:45:08] Chris: It's kind of spider like, I guess. 

[00:45:10] Jeff: I mean, freaky. And in the theater. It was fun to see that. It's always fun to see a good horror movie in a theater. But people were screaming when that happened. That was great. Yeah. Oh, did, we saw The Ring in the theater.

[00:45:26] Chris: Yes. 

[00:45:26] Jeff: And people were screaming in that. That was fun. 

[00:45:29] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:45:30] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:45:30] Chris: I remember really liking that movie, but that may have been the only time that I saw it was in the theater and I really, I don't remember it. I just know it was really good. 

[00:45:40] Jeff: It was good. It was intense and about, so I don't remember when that came out, early two thousands. A few years after that, we were gonna rent that, or we did rent it. We were gonna watch it on Halloween and we put it in. And we got like 10 minutes into it and we both said, no, I can't. We can't take it. Let's just watch something else. 

[00:46:04] Chris: Ten minutes in. 

[00:46:05] Jeff: Cuz it's intense. 

[00:46:07] Chris: I'll tell you what I really liked. The Others. 

[00:46:11] Jeff: Oh yeah. 

[00:46:12] Chris: Nicole Kidman. That's a good one. 

[00:46:15] Jeff: It is. It's a creepy, yeah, freaky kind of movie. 

[00:46:21] Chris: You're sitting there going, wait, what's happening? What am I, what am I watching? 

[00:46:26] Jeff: Right. Yeah. That was shocking.

[00:46:29] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:46:29] Jeff: See, there's Nicole Kidman. I said she kinda scares me. Well, in that role. 

[00:46:34] Chris: Right? 

[00:46:34] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:46:34] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:46:35] Jeff: She's gonna punish me.

What was that other topic you had? 

[00:46:42] Chris: Committing crimes: easier today or. 30, 50 years ago? 

[00:46:47] Jeff: I guess it depends on what crime we're talking about. I wanna say, I think it'd be easier, right, back a long time ago. 

[00:46:56] Chris: I would think so. You don't have as much surveillance for one. I mean now there are cameras in a lot of places and, and not only a lot of places, but people, people are walking around with their own cameras.

[00:47:09] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:47:10] Chris: But then, since the nineties we've got DNA evidence. That's... 

[00:47:15] Jeff: Right. 

[00:47:16] Chris: If, if you're doing something bad, that's bad for you. I mean, like before that, what could they do? Blood tests? And there's plenty of doubt with a, a regular blood test. 

[00:47:32] Jeff: So I was thinking more in terms of, like, going under the radar. Like, I know people who, I don't know people, but I've read when people back, say the sixties and before, like driver's licenses in a lot of states, Texas included, it wasn't, they didn't have picture ID. It was just a name and they had your information on there, like your address or whatever, and that was it. So, you could steal somebody's license and that served as your identification, but they had no way to verify that that was actually that person. So it was definitely easier to disappear back then. Now with everything else, like you said, cameras, social media, I mean, it's really harder to just disappear. But in terms of, yeah, like murder, whatever, like DNA. I've always said if I was gonna murder somebody, there's gonna be my DNA all over the goddamn place. A hair or whatever is, like, I stand no chance of not getting caught. 

[00:48:39] Chris: Really? You don't think you get away with it? 

[00:48:42] Jeff: OK. Well, you're laughing and I'm laughing because I know we've both thought about this. Not anybody specifically, but just could I get away with it? 

[00:48:54] Chris: Right. 

[00:48:55] Jeff: I tend to think that yes I could. But if I did it, I don't know that I'd be able to ...Jerry, how can I go on? So I don't know that I could continue to, to go on with my life and act completely normal. 

[00:49:13] Chris: OK. 

[00:49:13] Jeff: I don't think I could do that. Do you? Could you get away with a murder? 

[00:49:18] Chris: I think, well, whether I could go on, I think it'd depend on the circumstances. Like I might be more OK with it if it were one of those things where I felt, you know, justified. 

[00:49:31] Jeff: Justified. OK. Yeah, me too. True. 

[00:49:34] Chris: As to whether or not I could get away with it, I think just from the glorification of movie type stuff, I would like to think that I could.

[00:49:42] Jeff: Yeah. See, OK. That, yeah, that puts it better than, than I did. I would like to think that I could. 

[00:49:49] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:49:49] Jeff: I think that I'm, I don't know, pretty smart, clever. Like, I've seen enough documentaries, read enough in books, seen enough movies, to where people get, I know how they get caught a lot of times, so... 

[00:50:04] Chris: Don't do that.

[00:50:05] Jeff: Don't do that. Like, I know what to avoid. 

[00:50:08] Chris: Right. 

[00:50:08] Jeff: But, who knows? I don't know. 

[00:50:11] Chris: Well, and you hear, you know, of people that get caught, like, why in the hell did you do that? Like really? That's the best you could do? 

[00:50:20] Jeff: I know, I know. 

[00:50:21] Chris: See, that, it's those kinds of things when I hear it and I go, oh yeah, I could do better than that.

[00:50:27] Jeff: Right, right. 

[00:50:29] Chris: And I guess that's it. If I were to get caught, I would like to think that it was a challenge for them. It took them a while. Like I gave 'em a run for their money. 

[00:50:38] Jeff: Yeah. I'm trying to think of specific instances where, like, how did serial killers get caught and I can't, I can't think of any offhand. But it's always something, not always, but a lot of times people get caught, like, a taillight's out or stuff like that is just, come on.

[00:50:58] Chris: Yeah, that's true. 

[00:50:59] Jeff: Try harder. 

[00:51:01] Chris: Right? Yeah. You should have everything in line for that. Of course the thing about a serial killer, see, you talk about not getting caught. You do something more than once, well, your chances of being caught just go up astronomically. That's why magicians don't do tricks more than once for the same audience.

[00:51:22] Jeff: Right. 

[00:51:22] Chris: You know? It's like, nope. 

[00:51:23] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:51:24] Chris: Not showing you that again. 

[00:51:25] Jeff: No. Yeah, that's a good point. That's what made Ted Bundy hard to, to connect to a lot of the murders that had happened, because he generally moved from west to east. He started out in Washington and then I think he committed one or two murders in Colorado. He was in Utah for a while, I think. And then he ends up in Florida. Which is where they caught him. But... 

[00:51:56] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:51:56] Jeff: He was moving across the country. So, and especially back then, they didn't have all the, the ability to connect with other police departments that they do now. It was just really hard to, to track him down versus somebody just committing a bunch of murders in one particular geographic location is different. 

[00:52:14] Chris: Right. I know he had some commonalities, like asking for help, appearing weak, things like that. But didn't he have some differences too, where they weren't linking it because of that? Like, his mode was different?

[00:52:32] Jeff: I'm trying to remember. I know toward, toward the end, like before they caught him, his behavior was getting more aggressive. You're right. Before he had, he would lure people into a particular situation to where he could control 'em, like faking that he had a, you know, like broken leg or, that was one, like his car had stalled out, that was another one. But by the end he was like, I remember, it might have been the last murder he committed. He, um, he just kidnapped, uh, like a 12 year old girl, and killed her, Like just snatched her up and put her in his van. 

[00:53:12] Chris: Oh, really? 

[00:53:12] Jeff: And drove off. Yeah. And he had gone and uh, where, I think it was a sorority house at Florida State, and he had, uh, just broken in there and I think he...

[00:53:24] Chris: Beat them up.

[00:53:26] Jeff: Yeah, he did. He, it was more than one, and I don't think he killed all of 'em. But, uh, I remember reading one girl was messed up, like, for life. Like, she's deaf in one ear and had brain damage and whatever else. 

[00:53:39] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. So, I watched the Ted Bundy Tapes on Netflix. 

[00:53:46] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:53:46] Chris: So this, it was really interesting to me that it hit me this way. So, obviously, talking about those kinds of crimes that he committed: horrible, unbelievable. What in the hell's going on in somebody's mind that makes them do that. But then linking that with the death penalty, he was put to death, I think it was '89, I think, was when that happened. 

[00:54:14] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:54:15] Chris: But they showed people outside the prison when he was executed and they're out there cheering, going crazy, like, this is amazing, awesome, thank goodness this person's dead. 

[00:54:30] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:54:31] Chris: And for all of the horribleness that came out in that documentary, and it's, it's his words, which was great. I mean, it's almost kind of like as close as you could get to, um, The Staircase, you know? 

[00:54:47] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:54:47] Chris: Is, is that was actual film of that. These were his actual words, and in interviews. But, I felt bad. I felt bad about the fact that those people were out there cheering over him being executed. Now, should he be punished? Undoubtedly. If I were one of those family members, and see, maybe some of them were, but if I were one of those family members, would I have wanted him to be executed? Very likely. I mean, I, I can totally put myself in that position and, and see that. But there was something about that, all those people and going like, look. 

[00:55:34] Jeff: Yeah. It turns me off too. It's that whole blood thirsty mob-type mentality that, you know, yay, we're, we're killing somebody. It's like, I, just totally turns me off, that, that whole mindset.

[00:55:48] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:55:49] Jeff: Aside from whether somebody should be executed or not, just that whole mentality. Yeah. 

[00:55:56] Chris: Yeah, the approach to it. 

[00:55:59] Jeff: And Ted Bundy is, um, one of the most fascinating serial killers just to read about and watch and all that. But he, and this is one reason he was so successful at doing that, if that's the right word, but he could charm people. He could, he's well spoken. He doesn't appear threatening at all, and just listening to him on those tapes, he's... 

[00:56:26] Chris: Persuasive. 

[00:56:28] Jeff: Yes, persuasive. Very much so. Yeah. And it's scary to think about, that somebody like that could be so incredibly evil and do what he did. 

[00:56:39] Chris: Yeah. He just had this, well, it's a charisma. He had this air about him that was like, I think, people could say, like, there was this magnetic attraction, and not like in a, a sexual thing, but just like, this is a person I want to be around or listen to. 

[00:56:59] Jeff: There's a book by Ann Rule, and she became famous for writing true crime stuff, but her first book was called The Stranger Beside Me. And she was a, she was a journalist. I don't remember who she worked for at the time. But, uh, she's in Seattle, and these murders start happening around the Seattle area, so she's reporting on all these. And one of her coworkers is a guy named Theodore Bundy, who everybody called Ted. And so while she's covering all this, she's friends with Ted and they hang out and they're, I mean, they have a good relationship. She liked him, he was a good coworker and all that. And then the more she starts learning about the murders, and then there's a, you know, somebody's got a sketch of what somebody said that this person looked like, and she's like, oh my God. And then he, you know, eventually leaves the Seattle area, but she's still working on these, you know, writing about these murders. And then she makes the connection that that's actually him. It's amazing. It's a really good, really good read. 

[00:58:18] Chris: Well wouldn't that scare all the shit out of you? 

[00:58:20] Jeff: Well, it sure would. Yeah. So we're, I was talking about like, I think it would've been easier to just go off the grid a long time ago versus now. I recently listened to a podcast, and I don't remember the name of it. If I did, I would plug it. But they talked about people faking their own death. And they had a, an expert on there, I don't remember who he was. But the, the host asked him, do we know how many people do this? How many people fake their death? And the bottom line answer is no. We only know about people who have been caught...

[00:59:06] Chris: Failed. 

[00:59:06] Jeff: Trying to fake their own death. 

[00:59:07] Chris: Right. 

[00:59:08] Jeff: The other people, we don't know. We assume that they're missing or they've been declared dead. But we don't know if they actually faked their own death or not, because the people who are successful are never heard from again. 

[00:59:21] Chris: They're good enough, right? 

[00:59:23] Jeff: They're, they're good enough. But could you fake your own death? 

[00:59:28] Chris: I don't know. I thought about that in Breaking Bad, the disappearer, the vacuum cleaner guy. Like, how do you do that? How do you manufacture all of this identification? And, I mean, you're, you're setting up this brand new identity for someone. It's one thing for the other one to cease to exist. Like, it just literally drops off the face of the earth, OK. But the question is, as you still exist, what about that identity? How, how do you keep that from being linked somehow. Somebody knows you, sees something, hears something, and then how do you start doing something with a social security number, a bank account, and it's not found out that something's off. 

[01:00:20] Jeff: Yeah. And then he, he mentioned, aside from all of that kind of stuff, he mentioned the, the desire that will inevitably come to people who have tried to disappear. The desire to reconnect with some aspect of their old life. And that's usually people, family, friends, whoever, you want that connection. And people, he said, people don't realize how tough that is to just all of a sudden one day cut it off, never gonna talk to these people again, whatever. So, I can't imagine doing that. And then there's the money. Like, you're gonna have to have money to, at least, you know, to start out. You're gonna have to have some money put away. How would you actually handle that? 

[01:01:09] Chris: Yeah, that would be tough to, to walk away from everything. There, there's so many things that, well, maybe not people, but... 

[01:01:19] Jeff: Yeah.

[01:01:19] Chris: But yeah, I mean, people get nostalgic for whatever, and it's like you can't go to these places. You probably can't even really talk about it because if you talk about it to the wrong person, they might catch, like, oh, how did you know that? Oh, have you lived there before? Or did you know somebody? Like, you can't, it's all gotta be completely off limits.

[01:01:43] Jeff: Yeah. 

[01:01:43] Chris: I've thought about that with just witness protection. That that has to be a crazy thing by itself. I mean, at least you're, what do you want to call it, sanctioned? I mean, it's, you've got help. 

[01:01:55] Jeff: I wanna know more about how that works. So they tell you where you're gonna go, but how, how does getting a job work? Like, are you just expected to find employment wherever they put you? And then what if you can't get a job and, like, you're just, like, I don't know how all that works. And maybe there's a reason I don't know, because they just don't want, they don't reveal that information. 

[01:02:22] Chris: Yeah. 

[01:02:22] Jeff: You know what I mean though? Like, do they just give you a lump sum of money and say, here you go, and good luck. 

[01:02:28] Chris: Yeah, I would like to know, I'd like to know more about that too, just to know. I'd, I'd like to not have to have a reason to use it.

[01:02:35] Jeff: All right, if you like this kind of stuff, as I've said so many times, you are our kind of people. So go ahead and follow us, whatever platform you're listening to this on, uh, that way you'll get new episodes delivered to you automatically. While you're there, go ahead and rate us. Give us five stars if you are so inclined. And while you're there, write something. Leave a review. It doesn't matter what you say because if you put something down that makes it easier for people to discover this show. If you want to go to our website, we would appreciate that too. That is subpartalks.com. There, you can email us, you can leave us a voicemail. If you have suggestions on topics we should cover in future episodes, go ahead and leave those there as well. We will definitely take those into consideration. You can follow us on social media. On Twitter, we are @subpartalks. On Facebook, we are Subpar Talks. If you wanna follow our personal Twitter accounts, on there I am @independentjeff. 

[01:03:41] Chris: And I am @chrisbradfordtx. 

[01:03:45] Jeff: And we've got other social media. You can find those links on our website. And finally, get the word out about Subpar Talks. Talk to your friends, family, colleagues, whoever. Just get the word out about Subpar Talks because the more people we have listening to this show, the easier it is for us to get you this content each and every week.

All right. There's another episode of Subpar Talks. Until next week, so long.